Optimised Ninja

[-Baldur-]

Hi guys,

I really like the ninja idea, quite appealing. So I was wondering if someone could help me with the most optimised version of the Ninja (all books) with feats, skills and abilities, items etc all the way from 1-20? Is this possible? If not, then an optimised multi classer is fine as long as he is EXCEPTIONALLY sneaky and good at catching people flat footed. I'd considered designing a class with abilities solely reliant on making the enemy flat footed/sneaking/killing, but I thought I'd try this first.

Any and all help would be appreciated. But please in depth responses would be great.

Rock on my forum brethren.

^_^

Matt

[quick_comment]

Define "ninja"

Ninja base class is in complete adventurer, its decent.
Ninja of the crescent moon prcc is in sword and first, it isnt very good although it has some nice abilities.
Shadow Sun Ninja is in ToB, and like everything in ToB, its 10 gallons of awesome in a 1 gallon container.

[Goatman_Ted]

Look at the Swordsage in Tome of Battle.
Focus on Shadow Hand and Diamond Mind Maneuvers.

Or, depending on how you want to treat magic, the Player's Handbook 2's Beguiler.

Those are the easiest ways. 20 levels of either will be powerful enough for most groups.

Regardless of class, you're going to want to look at the Darkstalker feat in Lords of Madness.
It lets you sneak up on anything.

[-Baldur-]

Ninja Ninja. Pure awesome stealthy stabby brilliance that isn't seen. That's the best definition I have at the moment.

Curious, if someone were to homebrew a pure stealth NON skill monkey with abilities that centered specifically on flat footing the opponent, disappearing, stabby goodness, and snipering from a distance, what would you as players like to see included in the class? What would your ideal perfect feats be for bonus feats? What new abilities would you like seen?

Shadow sun ninja sounds intriguing...I think I'll look into this...The Dark stalker thing sounds brilliant too!

[Doc Roc]

Alternatively, there's the factotum/swordsage/iajatsu master build.

[-Baldur-]

Alternatively, there's the factotum/swordsage/iajatsu master build.

Could you explain it in a little more detail? Why it's awesomeness in a can?

[AslanCross]

I also recommend a Swordsage build focusing on Shadow Hand maneuvers and stances. It combines the sneakiness and mysticism quite well, though multiclassing with either Rogue (better for skill points) or Ninja (for Shadow Strike) will increase your damage output for catching opponents flat-footed.

[-Baldur-]

I also recommend a Swordsage build focusing on Shadow Hand maneuvers and stances. It combines the sneakiness and mysticism quite well, though multiclassing with either Rogue (better for skill points) or Ninja (for Shadow Strike) will increase your damage output for catching opponents flat-footed.

Haven't really looked into TOB that well....but sword sage...really that sneaky? Even with the maneuvers and stances?

[Yuki Akuma]

Haven't really looked into TOB that well....but sword sage...really that sneaky? Even with the maneuvers and stances?

That's what Shadow Hand is all about.

Maneuvers and stances don't need to be flashy.

[Eldariel]

Haven't really looked into TOB that well....but sword sage...really that sneaky? Even with the maneuvers and stances?

Uh, the maneuvers and stances are specifically based on being stealthy and benefitting of it. Shadow Hand-ones anyways; it's one of the 9 schools, and a Swordsage-specific one at that. Nothing in maneuvers and stances does anything to counteract sneakiness.

[-Baldur-]

That's what Shadow Hand is all about.

Maneuvers and stances don't need to be flashy.

Sweetness. Does anyone have a link to a sword sage with shadow hand maneuveres? An optimal build etc? :-)

[Eldariel]

Sweetness. Does anyone have a link to a sword sage with shadow hand maneuveres? An optimal build etc? :-)

The good news is that it's a ToB-character; you are unlike to screw it up. Many players find ToB characters potentially breaking their games specifically because they require no optimization to be solid.


That said, you could focus on two-weapon fighting with the "Shadow Blade"-feat and Weapon Finesse to focus entirely on Dexterity. This would mean you'd probably mostly use Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand; Tiger Claw for two-weapon fighting maneuvers and Shadow Hand for the ambush ones, for one.

You could also focus on Wis to empower the Shadow Hand save-or-X maneuvers; combined with Intuitive Attack [BoED] and School Focus class feature, you'll actually get Wis to attacks and damage so this works out ok.

Other than that, you could of course go Str-focus. But yeah, as long as you're picking a large number of interesting Shadow Hand maneuvers and distributing stats accordingly, you'll be a solid Shadow Hand swordsage.

[-Baldur-]

The good news is that it's a ToB-character; you are unlike to screw it up. Many players find ToB characters potentially breaking their games specifically because they require no optimization to be solid.

Score. So what is so good about the TOB characters? I heard fighters were sub-par when compared to wizards? Is this still the case with sword sage?

[Jack_Simth]

Regardless of class, you're going to want to look at the Darkstalker feat in Lords of Madness.
It lets you sneak up on anything.

Check out Mindsight feat (also from Lords of Madness) and weep.

[Riffington]

Score. So what is so good about the TOB characters? I heard fighters were sub-par when compared to wizards? Is this still the case with sword sage?

With very little work, they are almost as strong as an optimized fighter (and much more versatile). Thus, in a campaign where your wizards just pick spells that look cool (like fireball), then your swordsage will be as powerful as a wizard. Against an optimized wizard... not a chance.

[Eldariel]

Score. So what is so good about the TOB characters? I heard fighters were sub-par when compared to wizards? Is this still the case with sword sage?

A Wizard who selects his spells carefully has the most powerful abilities in the game (Druid and Cleric, on the other hand, can take Fighter's place easily while still maintaining their casting). Swordsage certainly does much better than Fighter by comparison, but past level 6 or so, magic is the king.

That said, as long as you don't have anyone stepping on your turf, you won't be useless. That is, as long as you're the glass cannon/sneak of the party, the fact that Wizards and Clerics are objectively more powerful shouldn't bother you because you've got your shtick and you're doing it better. That's overall the biggest thing ToB gives melee: abilities other classes cannot replicate and their own place in the party.


A Swordsage with Darkstalker-feat [Lords of Madness] can be an awesome sneak. Few levels of multiclassing with Rogue, Ninja or Factotum gets you all the remaining skills you couldn't otherwise cover (especially with Able Learner [Races of Destiny] to keep them in class after continuing Swordsage) and gives you a bunch of other nifty abilities.

But yeah, a straight Swordsage will do, as long as you don't need to be the Trap Expert; for that you have to do a bit of multiclassing. A straight Swordsage is a very potent sneak and killer though. He also has a host of other talents depending on your maneuver selection.

[-Baldur-]

A Wizard who selects his spells carefully has the most powerful abilities in the game (Druid and Cleric, on the other hand, can take Fighter's place easily while still maintaining their casting). Swordsage certainly does much better than Fighter by comparison, but past level 6 or so, magic is the king.

That said, as long as you don't have anyone stepping on your turf, you won't be useless. That is, as long as you're the glass cannon/sneak of the party, the fact that Wizards and Clerics are objectively more powerful shouldn't bother you because you've got your shtick and you're doing it better. That's overall the biggest thing ToB gives melee: abilities other classes cannot replicate and their own place in the party.


A Swordsage with Darkstalker-feat [Lords of Madness] can be an awesome sneak. Few levels of multiclassing with Rogue, Ninja or Factotum gets you all the remaining skills you couldn't otherwise cover (especially with Able Learner [Races of Destiny] to keep them in class after continuing Swordsage) and gives you a bunch of other nifty abilities.

But yeah, a straight Swordsage will do, as long as you don't need to be the Trap Expert; for that you have to do a bit of multiclassing. A straight Swordsage is a very potent sneak and killer though. He also has a host of other talents depending on your maneuver selection.

Great. Perfect. Awesome. I haven't really had that much of a look at maneuvers and stances etc but they are becoming more and more interesting by the second.

[Zaq]

Just make sure he has ranks in Craft (Anonymous Satirical Poetry.)

No, really, I'm serious. That was actually considered a ninja art. For real. I'm totally serious.

[lsfreak]

While the swordsage itself isn't online anywhere, all the maneuvers are. Just make sure you remember maneuvers are like spells, in that the level doesn't mean that's when you get them. (Follows a wizard's progression, a maneuver is available at twice its level minus 1).
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a

As for a build... it's hard to go wrong.

[wadledo]

Just make sure he has ranks in Craft (Anonymous Satirical Poetry.)

No, really, I'm serious. That was actually considered a ninja art. For real. I'm totally serious.

I second this.
I can't tell you the number of times this skill has saved my hide.

[-Baldur-]

I second this.
I can't tell you the number of times this skill has saved my hide.

Lol! Indeed. :-p

[chiasaur11]

Just make sure he has ranks in Craft (Anonymous Satirical Poetry.)

No, really, I'm serious. That was actually considered a ninja art. For real. I'm totally serious.

I find this both oddly believable and awesome.