Stats for a Greathammer

[Olo Demonsbane]

The thread title says it all. It might be something like the Greathorn Greathammer or something like that, and I think it is in one of the Monster Manuals.

Also, on a related note, how does reach increase with size?

[Sinfire Titan]

1d12, 19-20 x4. Some people will tell you it's just the x4, not 19-20. These people don't like melee classes having nice things.


It becomes 3d6 (or was it 2d8?) when your Size increases. Grab EWP Heavy Greathammer, pick up a pair of Strongarm Bracers and a Large-sized Platinum Greathammer, and you're looking at about 4d6, 19-20 x4 worth of murder. Platinum is in Magic of Faerun, Strongarm Bracers in the MiC. Greathammer is in MM5, BTW.


Size categories are explained in the PHB, somewhere in the Combat chapter.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Thank you for that.

Yeah I get how damage increases with size. The PHB does not say anywhere how much it increases in reach.

[Coidzor]

Reach increases in increments of 5 feet, generally by one increment every size category from medium you go. Long creatures are an increment less unless that would take them less than 5 feet.

I think.

Around page 131 is the Creature Size and Scale table... Table 8-7: Creature Size and Scale.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Thank you for that.

Yeah I get how damage increases with size. The PHB does not say anywhere how much it increases in reach.

Weapon size has no effect on reach. So wielding a weapon several size categories larger than you are has no actual mechanical effect on reach, no matter how confusing that is(especially with reach weapons).

[Faleldir]

If you think the high crit is overpowered, remember that a Minotaur greathammer has no listed price. That might be an oversight, but it might also mean that only a specific type of monster drops it. There's your mitigating factor.

[Sinfire Titan]

Weapon size has no effect on reach. So wielding a weapon several size categories larger than you are has no actual mechanical effect on reach, no matter how confusing that is(especially with reach weapons).

Yeah, I know. Imagine this: Fighter with Major Titan Bloodline. DM rules he has the ability as written in the MM, so he can wield Gargantuan weapons one handed with no penalty. He picks up a Gargantuan Longspear/Lance/Glaive, and is only able to threaten the spaces he could normally without the oversized weapon. Not only does this not make sense physically, it only makes the option a worse choice aside from extra damage.

Same situation, except replace the references to Major Titan Bloodline with Powerful Build, and Gargantuan with Large. Character picks up a Large Glaive, a weapon easily twice his size, and can't hit things more than 10ft away. This is despite the weapon being a full 15ft or more in length.


Man, I wish I had some of the stuff the developers smoke when they wrote some of this garbage. If it's that powerful, it should be able to kill a moose in one puff!

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Yeah, I know. Imagine this: Fighter with Major Titan Bloodline. DM rules he has the ability as written in the MM, so he can wield Gargantuan weapons one handed with no penalty. He picks up a Gargantuan Longspear/Lance/Glaive, and is only able to threaten the spaces he could normally without the oversized weapon. Not only does this not make sense physically, it only makes the option a worse choice aside from extra damage.

Want one worse? Pixie with the Major Titan Bloodline. Wields a Gargantuan Longspear. Cannot affect things outside her square. With the GARGANTUAN REACH WEAPON, she cannot affect things more than 5 ft away. Hell, the weapon itself qualifies as Gargantuan, and if wielded by an appropriately sized creature wouldn't affect anything within 20'.

[The Glyphstone]

What's all this nonsense about Gargantuan Longspears and Lances? The Oversized Weapon ability only works with Warhammers anyways.

[IM@work]

The greathammer is in MM4, not MM5.

I personally like to do a critical hits build with this weapon as there a number of awesome weapon enhancements that can do some pretty nasty extra damage with this. Take Disciple of Dispater from BoVD and you can have over a x4 crit and over a 15-20 range if I recall correctly. Also, if you throw in the Blood in the Water stance from Tome of Battle, and Lightning Maces feat and aptitude weapons... things get ridiculously cheesy.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Thanks everyone. My character now does tons of damage with his Greathammer

[quick_comment]

1d12, 19-20 x4. Some people will tell you it's just the x4, not 19-20. These people don't like melee classes having nice things.

No, you're thinking of the silly killjoys who say that the Tome of Battle unbalances the game.
If this hammer thing were somehow a part of a coordinated effort to give melee classes some extra power by messing with the crit-giving stats of all the weapons in the game (a new special material, design property or some such), or at least introducing a diverse subset of super-crit martial weapons, it wouldn't be broken. However, just taking the EXOTIC mercurial greatsword, making it a d12 hammer instead of a 2d6 sword and making it a MARTIAL weapon basically makes just about every other martial weapon obsolete. That is by definition game breaking. In a world where these ungodly things exist, there would be no greatswords, greataxes, mauls etc. All of these weapons suddenly stop being logical choices for melee characters when this hammer type comes into play. If you're going to introduce an option that makes every other choice it its category look like chopped liver, then at least try to add enough new and diverse choices that utilize the new mechanics. The ToB does this. Like the ToB, the introduction of this weapon does not make melee warriors anywhere near equal to casters, but unlike the ToB it does not provide sufficient options that replace the ones that are rendered obsolete (or at least nearly so) by the new ones introduced.

If you want to homebrew a ToB-scale facelift of how critical hits work, fine! But if you're just going to accept the greathammer as a martial weapon, be prepared for a world where the warriors use nothing but Greathammers. And to me that sounds a bit boring.

I say that we must assume that there was a misprint and that it should be an exotic weapon- but Greathorn Minotaurs get to treat it like a martial one. This is most consistent with the existing 3.5 rules.

[Kyeudo]

<rant about martial greathammers>

Greathammers are Exotic Weapons, not martial. Greathorn Minotaurs get racial profiency in them, but that's it. They are not martial weapons without a houserule. You get a 2 steps better critical over a greataxe for 1 feat. It's not broken.

[quick_comment]

Whoops. I somehow missed that on my cursory scan of the page in the book. And the folks in this thread seemed to be talking about it as if it were a martial weapon. My mistake.

[Thurbane]

The 19-20/x4 critical isn't necessarily broken, but it is out of line with every other exotic weapon that I can think of...

[T.G. Oskar]

The greathammer is in MM4, not MM5.

I personally like to do a critical hits build with this weapon as there a number of awesome weapon enhancements that can do some pretty nasty extra damage with this. Take Disciple of Dispater from BoVD and you can have over a x4 crit and over a 15-20 range if I recall correctly. Also, if you throw in the Blood in the Water stance from Tome of Battle, and Lightning Maces feat and aptitude weapons... things get ridiculously cheesy.

One level of Master of Masks, levels in Disciple of Dispater, start as Warblade, perhaps get Stormguard Warrior, Lightning Maces, TWF and other feats plus Monkey Grip (or start with Powerful Build), get two Light Maces of a size larger than yours and made by a Kaorti. I'd also go with an Expansion tattoo or two, or the belt that raises your size (Belt of Growth?). If you want to really make it hilarious, see if you can do it all the way to get to Time Stands Still, Raging Mongoose, Adamantine Hurricane and Avalanche of Blades. Heck, if you're feeling lucky, then get Combat Reflexes AND Robilar's Gambit if you get the chance.

Then get to town. The damage may be cruddish, but any weapon that's x4 and can reach 15-20, and taking advantage of Combat Rhythm before unleashing the REAL bunch of strikes.

Other recommendations are: find a way to get invisible, get any way to have all your attacks become touch weapons, Boots of Speed, Snap Kick, any way to increase your unarmed strike damage.

Or, replace the light maces and Lightning Maces with that big greathammer, and go Shock Trooper build. Extra points if it gets to Platinum.

[Eloel]

The 19-20/x4 critical isn't necessarily broken, but it is out of line with every other exotic weapon that I can think of...

It actually IS broken. It's 26x damage over 20 hits. The closest you get is 23x, with 18-20/x2 & 20/x4. That's an average of 13% increase in damage (with ALL modifiers), on top of the 1d12 damage dice. That makes anything non-special (disarming/tripping/reach) obsolete.

[#Raptor]

1d12, 19-20 x4. Some people will tell you it's just the x4, not 19-20. These people don't like melee classes having nice things.

It becomes 3d6 (or was it 2d8?) when your Size increases. Grab EWP Heavy Greathammer, pick up a pair of Strongarm Bracers and a Large-sized Platinum Greathammer, and you're looking at about 4d6, 19-20 x4 worth of murder. Platinum is in Magic of Faerun, Strongarm Bracers in the MiC. Greathammer is in MM5, BTW.

Yepp. Can I agree strongly enough?

Didn't know the Platinum enhancement btw. Very nice - certainly useful if your arcane caster doesn't have races of the dragon (for greater mighty wallop).


And as nice as it is, of the top of my head I can still think of several builds that have no use for the 19-20/x4 Greathammer:

- Frenzied Berserkers. Theyr just too featstarved. If I have to decide between EWP or Leap Attack/Shock Trooper for my next level... well, yeah. I'm sure theyre are plenty of other, similary feat starved builds, but FB's are a favorite of mine, so there.

- Anything that wants to make use of Exotic weapon master. Uncanny blow only works with onehanded exotic weapons.

- Anyone that wants to get a great (not just good) crit range without paying too much for it. A scabbard of keen edges can't be used with bludgeoning weapons, you can't even get keen on your greathammer as a enhancement. You gotta take Improved Critical. When you compare a greatsword to a greathammer, keep in mind that the greatsword becomes a 17-20/x2 weapon later.

- Trippers. Duh.

- TWFers. Double duh. (And before someone points out that TWF is hardly optimized: Jack B. Quick. I'd link to it, but looks like gleemax is dead right now.)

I'm sure there are plenty of other builds that would have absolutely no use for the greathammer that I don't remember right now.
To me, that means one thing. The greathammer with 19-20/x4 is a excellent option. But its not so good that it pigeonholes you into this one option and thats it. Having multiple decent options is a good thing, and so is the greathammer.

[Kyeudo]

The 19-20/x4 critical isn't necessarily broken, but it is out of line with every other exotic weapon that I can think of...

That's because every other exotic weapon except the spiked chain sucks. Most only offer a single increase of damage dice or a one step better critical over a martial weapon. As a whole, Exotic Weapon Proficiency is just not quite enough to spend a feat on, but the few gems always get called broken.

It actually IS broken. It's 26x damage over 20 hits. The closest you get is 23x, with 18-20/x2 & 20/x4. That's an average of 13% increase in damage (with ALL modifiers), on top of the 1d12 damage dice. That makes anything non-special (disarming/tripping/reach) obsolete.

How does Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greathammer) compare to Power Attack in terms of damage return? How about Leap AttacK? I'd like to know how it stacks up against other, proven fighter feats before I call it anything but viable.

Oh, and note that you can't keen a greathammer, since it's bludgeoning. Gotta get Improved Critical for it, which is more expensive to a character.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

It actually IS broken. It's 26x damage over 20 hits. The closest you get is 23x, with 18-20/x2 & 20/x4. That's an average of 13% increase in damage (with ALL modifiers), on top of the 1d12 damage dice. That makes anything non-special (disarming/tripping/reach) obsolete.

It's an Exotic weapon. It's supposed to be strictly better than any martial weapon. It's still not the best choice for everyone, or even most people(how many builds can afford to blow a feat for a slightly better crit?), it's simply a good weapon in terms of damage with the best crit out there.

[Sinfire Titan]

That's because every other exotic weapon except the spiked chain sucks. Most only offer a single increase of damage dice or a one step better critical over a martial weapon. As a whole, Exotic Weapon Proficiency is just not quite enough to spend a feat on, but the few gems always get called broken.



How does Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greathammer) compare to Power Attack in terms of damage return? How about Leap AttacK? I'd like to know how it stacks up against other, proven fighter feats before I call it anything but viable.

Oh, and note that you can't keen a greathammer, since it's bludgeoning. Gotta get Improved Critical for it, which is more expensive to a character.

Impact from the MIC, Keen for Bludgeons.

[Epinephrine]

I agree that 19-20/x4 is broken, especially since the Greathammer is also in Races of Stone, as a x4, not a 19-20/x4. No other weapon gets a crit advantage as strong as the greathammer, not even the exotics - weapon that exceeds all others=unbalanced.

[ex cathedra]

Broken? Right. 1d12 19-20/x4 is broken. That's less broken than multiple first and second level spells.

Not to mention kaorti falchions, etc. Really, the Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer and the Spiked Chain are what exotic weapons should be.

[Mongoose87]

Broken? Right. 1d12 19-20/x4 is broken. That's less broken than multiple first and second level spells.

Not to mention kaorti falchions, etc. Really, the Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer and the Spiked Chain are what exotic weapons should be.

It's nice to actually be rewarded for spending the feat, as opposed to doing it for flavor.

[Curmudgeon]

Broken? Right. 1d12 19-20/x4 is broken. That's less broken than multiple first and second level spells.

But you can swing a weapon all day long. You can't do that with spells. Big difference.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I agree that 19-20/x4 is broken, especially since the Greathammer is also in Races of Stone, as a x4, not a 19-20/x4. No other weapon gets a crit advantage as strong as the greathammer, not even the exotics - weapon that exceeds all others=unbalanced.

And you have to spend a feat to wield it. Exotic weapons should be far better than their martial counterparts, and how often does someone take EWP? Duskblades take whip, chain trippers take chain, EWMs take whichever, fanbois take Bastard Swords and that's pretty much it. Most of the Exotic weapons are far too expensive for what you get(generally an extra point of damage or a Double weapon). The Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer(which was not reprinted or errata'd) is an exotic weapon designed to boost damage. Yes, it's the best option, but only for the purposes of damage. It's the Greatsword of Exotics, and just as limited.

[ex cathedra]

But you can swing a weapon all day long. You can't do that with spells. Big difference.

In all fairness, proper use of certain spells means that you won't need to cast spells all day long (assuming proper amounts of encounters / day, of course. Skewing those changes everything. )

Past fifth level, a caster running out of spells is likely, as they say, "doing it wrong."

[Sinfire Titan]

But you can swing a weapon all day long. You can't do that with spells. Big difference.

And one spell can stop Fighter who is wielding a Greathammer from ever even hitting the Wizard (Grease/Solid Fog, as appropriate for the level). So much for that EWP, and the Fighter's Greathammer can't do a damn thing to stop this from happening.


Some difference. The Greathammer can't end encounters without attack rolls. Grease/Solid Fog shuts down pretty much any encounter for their levels (Grease becomes obsolete against Flyers, but that's where Earthbind comes into play). Sucks when a 1st level spell can completely negate the need for an entire class.

[Thurbane]

That's because every other exotic weapon except the spiked chain sucks. Most only offer a single increase of damage dice or a one step better critical over a martial weapon. As a whole, Exotic Weapon Proficiency is just not quite enough to spend a feat on, but the few gems always get called broken.

Well, that's one school of thought. Personally, I'd rather have not have one weapon that it out of line with everything else. YMMV

Oh, and note that you can't keen a greathammer, since it's bludgeoning. Gotta get Improved Critical for it, which is more expensive to a character.

Impact (MIC p.37) - works exactly like Keen, but for bludgeoning weapons.

[SensFan]

Well, that's one school of thought. Personally, I'd rather have not have one weapon that it out of line with everything else. YMMV

The proper fix, then, is to make all the other Exotic weapons worth the feat. Not to remove the couple weapons that may make EWP a takeable feat.