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2009-06-07, 01:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
I'm going to be running a series of "boss fights" againist my fellow players after the DM has to go to bed. (works early, everyone else is off)
I want to do a dragon fight as I have never actually had a game with a bloody dragon that I got to play.
The rules for thier characters: roll 4d6 drop lowest, reroll ones or 32 point buy.
All official WotC books (don't expect many ToB, they don't like it). Montrous races are fine, but no more than 2 LA & 2 HD.
Pathfinder changes (basically the skills and HD are based off of BAB, little bit better PHB races)
My rules: any, I'm a DM of this, buwhahah, Er, anyway. I don't want a TPK, but I also don't want to just lose my dragon because I have never made one. Quick look over the monster shows me Reflex + Touch ac is bad, so need to touch up that if I can. Few other standard issues like that.
What should I look for in designing the lair, what buffs should I keep in mind with draconic awesomeness, etc.Originally Posted by Alabenson
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2009-06-07, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
One buff every single dragon ever should have is Scintillating Scales from the Spell Compendium, which lets them swap their natural armour bonus for a deflection bonus, hugely increasing their touch AC.
Last edited by Worira; 2009-06-07 at 01:37 AM.
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2009-06-07, 02:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-06-07, 06:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
Additionally, Blood Wind from the SpC allows the dragon to use its natural weapons at range. No need to land and risk a pouncing megacharge from the cheesed-out raging barbarian. Just eviscerate him (and the wizard, with the wizard hit first from invisible ambush) from 30' up.
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2009-06-07, 06:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
Oh ya, I remember Scintillating Scales. Probably would have caught that for when I did his spell list, but definitly something I should remember. Thank you.
*note to self, look at libris mortis*Originally Posted by Alabenson
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2009-06-07, 06:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
Give it a couple associated class levels. This serves 2 purposes, without severely imbalancing the character.
1) Allows you to base the dragon off the elite stat array, which boosts most of its stats.
2) Improves the creature's abilities via class.
I like adding a couple levels of sorceror, usually. Gives you the opportunity to cast a couple higher level spells than the dragon normally could.
Also, stat up the treasure BEFORE the fight. If the dragon has an intelligence over 4? Assume he knows what's in his horde, and is willing to use it.
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2009-06-07, 06:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-06-07, 06:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
Uhm, there's no CR 15 Black Dragon. Mature is CR 14, Old is CR 16, Very Old is CR 18, take your pick. Anyways, Draconomicon offers the feat "Awaken Spell Resistance", which sets Spell Resistance to the Dragon's Racial HD.
It's generally worth taking once, especially for the older Dragons (Old Black gets +3 SR from it, Very Old gets +5). Otherwise, if you have excess feats... Other than that, Draconomicon offers Metabreath Feats, which could definitely be worthwhile. There are also spells there that allow you to, among other things, switch the breath element.
Also giving it some items (maybe some handy Wands or such?) isn't a bad idea. Stat boosters are also game. And strongly consider giving it Practiced Spellcaster to make its buffs a bit harder to dispel.
It also gets two epic feats; Dire Charge [SRD] is a very good plan - it's basically Pounce. Also, picking Improved Flight [Complete Adventurer] twice would get it Good manoeuvrability, which allows it to Hover and fly straight up or even backwards, among other things.Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
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2009-06-07, 06:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
If it's a black dragon, keep in mind it can breathe underwater. Design the lair to incorporate this (a series of underwater tunnels connecting rooms gives it extreme mobility compared to the party usually). If you can force the party to go underwater to kill it they'll hate you for it, which is a good thing
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2009-06-07, 06:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
A CR 15 black dragon could be a Mature Adult (CR 14) with the Elite Array (CR +1). Alternatively, you could also just give it one sorcerer level (which automatically gives it CR +1 AND the Elite Array).
-It would be Huge, which allows it to Crush medium creatures (the PCs).
-Draconomicon has a lot of feats (Metabreath feats, for example) that help optimize the dragon's primary weapons (physical attacks and breath weapon).
-Make sure you get Wingover so you can turn abruptly, and also see the other feats that will help make use of its flight (Flyby Attack, Hover, etc)
-Awesome Blow is a really good feat for dragons. Their potentially enormous damage will send melee characters flying. Especially great with their tails (highest damage dealing attack) or their bite (highest AB).
-Strafe with your breath weapon. I find this the most devastating dragon encounter feature ever. Keep in mind you need Flyby Attack or Hover to be able to do this from the air.
-Spells are just there in a supporting capacity, since the dragon typically has a lower caster level than the PCs. A mature adult black dragon only has 5th level sorcerer casting; 6th if you give it one level. That gives you only one 3rd level spell known.
-Scintillating scales is the single most important dragon defensive buff, since it turns your Natural armor bonus into a deflection bonus. Perfect for dealing with cheesy touch/ranged touch spells.
-The setting is very, very important for dragon encounters. Always, always, ALWAYS give the dragon room to fly. A dragon that sits on its tail is a dead dragon. Seriously. They have among the best flight speeds among all flying monsters and should use it.
-A black dragon would typically have a nice swamp lair. Use lots of water and bog to slow down the PCs. Keep in mind a black dragon can remain underwater forever, so that gives you another attack option.
I once had a black dragon that was floating slightly beneath the surface (kind of like a gator) with its eyes closed. It looked like a log to the PCs, who failed their Spot checks. The dragon was keeping watch on them with its Blindsense.
As soon as they got close enough, it came out of the water and used its surprise round to give them an acid bath. They managed to win it, but it was a really tough fight.
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2009-06-07, 06:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
I'd make it an Adult Black Dragon (base CR 11), Abjurant Champion 5 (CR +5 if considered associated, CR +2.5 rounded down if considered nonassociated). Since Abjurant Champion contributes to some of its strengths but not all of them, I'd average the CR gains from it (5 + 2.5 /2) for a +3.75 CR, and round it up to +4 for a total CR 15. Any monster with class levels gets the elite ability score array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) without increasing its CR. The elite array comes out to 25 pointbuy, which is what the game assumes most PCs are using, so if your PCs are using 32 pointbuy then it's only fair to give the monsters the same.
You'll need a copy of the Spell Compendium and the Draconomicon for sure, and Complete Mage for Abjurant Champion.
Adult Black Dragon Abjurant Champion 5
Large Dragon (Water)
HD 19d12+5d10+168 HP 379 (75% of max per die, max at 1st HD)
Initiative +6 (+11 with Nerveskitter)
Speed 60 ft., Fly 150 ft. average, swim 60 ft.
AC 42 (-1 size, +2 dex, +18 deflection, +4 mage armor, +9 shield)
Touch AC 29, flat footed 40
Base Attack/Grapple +24/+36
Attack Bite +31 melee 2d6+8
Full Attack Bite +31 melee 2d6+9, and 2 claws +29 melee 1d8+4, and 2 wings +29 melee 1d6+4, and tail slap +29 melee 1d8+12
Space/Reach 10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with bite)
Special Attacks Breath Weapon (12d4, 80 ft. line, DC 29), Frightful Presence (180 ft., DC 25), Spells, Darkness, Corrupt Water, Swift Abjuration, Arcane Boost
Special Qualities Immune to Acid, Sleep, and Paralysis, Water Breathing, DR 5/Magic, SR 24, Blindsense 60 ft., Darkvision 120 ft., Low-Light Vision, Abjurant Armor, Extended Abjuration, Martial Arcanist, Fast Healing 3
Saves Fort +19, Reflex +14, Will +16
Abilities Str 26, Dex 14, Con 25, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 16
Skills Listen +23, Spot +23, Search +23, Hide +20, Move Silently +24, Concentration +29, Spellcraft +23, Intimidate +18, Swim +16
Feats Combat Casting, Improved Flight, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Awaken Spell Resistance, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (+16), Multiattack, Fast Healing
Challenge Rating 15
Treasure I'd use the sample CR 15 horde from the Draconomicon, page 283. Sadly, there's nothing in it that he would be able to use.
Sorcerer spells/day 6/7/7/6/3, DC 13 + spell level, caster level 24
Sorcerer spells known 8/5/3/2/1
0- Arcane Mark, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Ghost Sound
1st- Shield*, Mage Armor, Nerveskitter, Alarm*, Protection from Good*
2nd- Scintillating Scales*, Web, See Invisibility
3rd- Dispel Magic*, Protection from Energy*
4th- Ray Deflection*
*=Swift/Extended Abjuration
The main chamber of his lair is flooded with about a foot of murky water, too dark to see through. It should be a ridiculously huge room with an extremely high ceiling, something like a 300 ft. diameter, 150 ft. high at the center. Around the room are deadfalls leading to a network of flooded tunnels and low crevasses for intruders to stumble into or for him to hide in. His Blindsense ability allows him to navigate the tunnels and detect creatures walking above. His horde is at the bottom of the lowest tunnel, which is where he sleeps. There are at least two escape routes from these tunnels leading out into the swamp, they're each blocked by a stone weighing at least a ton, he's able to lift one and swim under before it falls back into place due to his carrying capacity. Alarm spells are placed all over the tunnels leading in, mostly around corners and in alcoves where anyone looking for one wouldn't be able to find it without setting it off.
Prior to combat: Mage Armor, Shield, Ray Deflection, Scintillating Scales, Protection from Good, Protection from Energy x4, See Invisibility
Spells/day remaining 6/4/5/2/2
Hide under murky water in the tunnels and be ready to catch them unaware.
Surprise round: Stick his head just above the water (free), cast an area Dispel Magic on as many as he can (swift), use a breath weapon to hit as many as he can (standard), 5 ft. adjust under the water (free), ending up 15 ft. below the surface due to his bite reach.
1st round: Full attack with power attack if anyone is within reach with trip attempts until it works, or bull rush someone into a deadfall and continue moving with them as deep as he can go.
2nd round: repeat 1st round's tactics, try to get one opponent away from everyone else under the water then full attack until they stop moving. If reduced below 50% retreat and hide in the tunnels and wait for Fast Healing to get him above 80% or so, possibly harassing with his breath weapon.
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2009-06-07, 09:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
Awesome Blow is generally a terrible idea unless there is lava or something to take advantage of it. Don't forget that it's a standard action to make that single attack.
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2009-06-07, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
Feats: There are a lot of good recommendations for feats in the dragon monster description. Feats like blind fight shut down an invisible melee rogue's sneak attack, for example. Don't forget his automatic immunities for being a dragon, either, that'll shut down a lot of SoD's.
Prep: A smart dragon should use his spells to keep himself well prepared at all times. Buff himself with any buff that lasts all day, energy resistance the energy type he's weak against, etc. A CR 15 dragon should have 2nd or 3rd level spells available, which are handy for this. What they aren't handy for are blasty spells or SoDs. Acting as a 5th level caster lobbing spells against a 12th-15th level party is a waste of the dragon's time.
Lair: The black dragon's description says that he likes to hide in swamps and marshes. He even has water breathing. So use that. Check out the "marsh terrain" section of the DMG for more info on terrain the dragon can take advantage of. Among other things, it can give a huge bonus to his reflex saves.
That should also keep the party from using cheap tactics on the dragon and keep the fight interesting, but beyond that I can't say what the difficulty level will be.Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-06-07 at 10:35 AM.
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2009-06-07, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
Perhaps make it semi skeletal with turn resistance.
That gives it cold immunity, all regular undead immunity and it only takes half dmg from slashing and piecing. If it stays semi skeletal then you can say it keeps its natural armour, if you go fully skeleton you can say it has much higher dexterity (nothing to weigh it down)
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2009-06-07, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
Surprise the players, make it really effective against things that are usually effective against dragons.
Phrenic Xorvintaal(MM5) Young Adult Black Dragon (CR9)/Swordsage 2/Soul Eater 2
Item of Dex +6
Item of Wis +6
+5 Chainmail "barding"
Necklace of Natural Attacks (+1 Spellblade:Shivering Touch)
Use the elite array, making the dragon Str 22 Dex 20 Con 18 Int 12 Wis 20 Cha 10
AC: 10+15(NA)+5(Dex)+5(Wis)+9(Armor)-1(Size)=43
Touch: 19
Flat Footed: 33
-No spells! It's more fun this way! He has Psi-likes instead, which help boost his AC and saves even more.
-Spell Resistance 26, annoying to break through
-Immune to shivering touch via items
-Has one of the amusing powers off the xorvintaal dragon list
-Gives a negative level everytime it hits something
What feats to give him? I find Mage-slayer a nice start, martial study and martial stance for thicket of blades works too.Sig'd
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2009-06-07, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
Dont forget the dragon prcs in dragon magic/races of dragon, and dragon lair ward glyphs.
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2009-06-07, 12:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
Originally Posted by SRD
SECOND, it advances the creature's casting ability, and stacks with those racial effective sorceror abilities.
If anyone honestly tried to argue that AbjChamp was a non-associated for a Gish Monster, they should be beaten with their books.
Then shot.
With a hammer.Last edited by Talic; 2009-06-07 at 12:24 PM.
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2009-06-07, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
If you want to keep it conceptually a black dragon, you probably want a mature adult with one class level. Yes, more class levels might make it more powerful, but it starts looking more like a character of that class who happens to be a dragon than a dragon who happens to be of that class.
As for what class to take, I suggest swordsage. You can take manuevers of up to sixth level if you can meet the prerequisites and have six manuevers to meet them with. When they try to hit your reflex save, you respond with a concentration check.
During your monstrous levels, feats are important. Probably focus on flying, breath weapon and grappling. Draconomicon and Savage Species have a lot of good material here.
Remember your skills. RHD are 6+int so you have a lot. Hide and Move Silently are class skills for you, so there's no reason your enemies should see you coming.
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2009-06-07, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
I tried running a Great Wyrm black dragon hunt once, so here are my tips, based on what went right and what didn't:
- Energy substitution! Especially if the players know that they'll be facing a black dragon, once the dragon knows they're prepared for him, suddenly breathing fire can be quite a surprise.
- When designing the lair, keep in mind that one of your main objectives should be to soften up the PCs for the dragon. They should be weakened and weary when the dragon pounces. Of course, you don't want them to be so weak as to stand no chance or die in the surprise round, but if they're at full strength, it might be too easy.
- Pools of acid around the lair can be nasty; being immersed in acid is 10d6 per round, but the dragon is immune. If he needs a time-out to cast buffs or heal, it can be a little safe haven for him. If a PC follows him, he better have good resistance, and even then, the dragon can probably outswim or outfight him. I ruled that Acid Immunity + Water Breathing = Acid Breathing, but it doesn't really matter with a dragon's huge Con, allowing him to hold his breath for approximately a bajillion rounds.
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2009-06-07, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
Dragons can start taking epic feats at the "old" age category. Since the level at which Blacks become old isn't divisible by three, a pure black dragon would have to be very old (cr 18) to have an epic feat. An old one could have the feat with two class levels (cr 17 or 18 depending on association).
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2009-06-07, 05:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
There's a spell somewhere that allows a full attack on a charge. There's also another one somewhere that allows double damage on a charge. And then there's a spell that makes all your natural weapons +1-+5. There's also a spell that makes you immune to metal weapons. Magic Circle against Good is nice.
That should probably allow a TPK.
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2009-06-08, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
I agree.
I also agree with this. Plus Hide/Move Silent is only one skill in pathfinder.
I was actually planning on focusing on water skills, because there is nothing more fun than making the players go swimming.
None of the players know what they are going to fight, not all I told them was "dragon." So they have that little bit of help, but not much more than that.Originally Posted by Alabenson
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2009-06-08, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
Fighters in heavy armor + water = uh-oh. Also, Flyby Attack lets you make a standard action during any point in your flight, I believe.
Dragon zooming past overhead and whacking the full-plate (and possibly shield) wearing Fighter into the water in the first round? Priceless.Pokemon friend code : 3067-5701-8746
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2009-06-08, 10:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
Since it's stuck in my mind, a detailed built for a mature adult black dragon level 1 swordsage:
Feats:
Snatch
Improved Snatch
Multisnatch
Multiattack
Shape Breath
Flyby Attack
Power Attack
Silent Spell
Manuevers:
Shadow Stride
Stalker in the Night
Action before Thought
Sapphire Nightmare Blade (not readied)
Mind Strike
Ruby Nightmare Blade (not readied)
Assasin's Stance
Spells:
Detect Magic
Dancing Lights
Ghost Sound
Mage Hand
Open/Close
Prestidigitation
---
Grease
True Strike
Silent Image
Ray of Enfeeblement
---
Detect Thoughts
Scintillating Scales
Skills:
Hide
Move Silently
Spot
Listen
Concentration
Swim
Lair:
Swamp with pools of water and pools of acid. Lots of charmed Dire Alligators in the non-acidic parts. Some of the pools contain underground flooded tunnels into the inner lair.
Tactics:
Stay in hiding as long as possible. Force the party to use resources fighting alligators and illusions. Try to disable any healers first (possibly using mind strike) so that a slow battle doesn't give the party a chance to recover. Separate the party by grappling them and flying away.
Equipment:
Traditionally, dragons fight unequipped. On the other hand, they also gather magic items and know how to use them, so this seems rather irrational. Probably the highest priority for equipment is healing: potions of cure serious wounds and lesser restoration. Protective gear that effects touch ac or saves is also handy, as would be an item of magic fang. For the full effect, remember that a dragon can use arcane scrolls limited by its charisma.
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2009-06-08, 10:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
If you want to be really evil, make sure it has Wraithstrike as a 2nd level spell. Full PA and incorporeal touches from a dragon's full attack routine HUUUUUURT.
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2009-06-08, 11:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
Last edited by Worira; 2009-06-08 at 11:16 PM.
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2009-06-09, 02:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
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2009-06-09, 02:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-06-09, 02:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
Hmm, would combat familiar actually be worth it with that kind of Bab/HD?
Originally Posted by Alabenson
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2009-06-09, 03:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimizing a black dragon (3.5) (cr 15)
Could always take the Obtain Familiar feat to really twink it out in that department.
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