Multiclass Feats and Gestalt - Gestalt DMs check this please

[arkol]

The other gestalt thread that just poped up remind me of a question I've been wanting to ask bu always forget.

When you are DMing Getalt games do you allow the multiclass feats? You know the likes of Daring Outlaw and Swift Hunter and several Ascetic Whatever?

I never DM or played a gestalt game, but to me using the feats straight as theywere would be silly but if I was to DM a gestalt game I would allow the feats but the stacking of levels could not be bigger then the character level.

So if say a character took Swasbuckler and rogue levels for the firt three levels the daring outlaw feawould still do nothing but if he then took levels in something else entirely the feat would help keep the grace and sneak attack.

Does this seem ok? Or would it just invite the players to even more mad multiclassing? Is that bad anyway?

[Duke of URL]

Personally, no.

MC feats are designed to work in non-gestalt where multiclassing sucks. In gestalt, the player always has the option of advancing the ability on both sides of the progression (whether (s)he chooses to or not is not the DM's problem) so they are not necessary and belong in the same circular file as dual-progression PrCs.

[Goatman_Ted]

When you are DMing Getalt games do you allow the multiclass feats?

I do when they're on one side of a build.
So a Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 4//whatever would have +4d6 Sneak Attack.

I'm not sure I wouldn't allow them when classes cross sides either. Most would be useless because of the way gestalt disregards all but the fastest class progression of class abilities. A Rogue//Swashbuckler would advance Sneak Attack and Dodge at the same rate as a Rogue/Swashbuckler in a normal game.

But I deal with these on a case-by-case basis: I'd let a Paladin 20//Ranger 20 use Devoted Tracker, but I'm not sure I'd give it to a Paladin//Druid.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

IMO, do it the same as dual-progression PrCs: You can use them, but you can't get them any earlier than you would in non-gestalt and you can't double-progress anything.

[Satyr]

I allow these feats, but only on one branch of the gestalt, not on both sides, and the different branches of the character do not affect each other for the purpose of the feats. So, a Barbarian 8//Ranger4/Scout 4 could take the Swift Hunter Feat, and profit from it, but a Ranger8 // Scout 8 could take it, but wouldn't get any bonus from it.

The way I see it, these feats were introduced to power up classes which are comparatively weak and they certainly do not become overpowered through the power boost, as long as there are full spellcasters in the group.

[arkol]

Never had though about "sides of progression". Makes some sense.... till someone starts taking the same class in different sides.

Exemple.

lvl1 swashbuckler/rogue
lvl2 swashbuckler/rogue
lvl3 swashbuckler/rogue
lvl4 fighter/rogue
lvl5 fighter/swashbuckler

Now what? Either some swashbuckler levels or fighter levels will be on different sides. How would you work it out then?

[quick_comment]

I would just make the feat apply to a single side of the progression.

[Epinephrine]

No, we don't allow them. Prevailing opinion in our group is that if you want to combine 2 classes in gestalt, do one on each side. We also don't allow dual progression prestige classes.

[Goatman_Ted]

Now what? Either some swashbuckler levels or fighter levels will be on different sides. How would you work it out then?

I would say that's 5 levels of Sneak Attack/Dodge progression.

But things do get sticky when alternate entrance methods and class variants get thrown in: I wouldn't give a Ninja 10//Swashbuckler 3/Feat Rogue 7 the +10d6 against flat-footed targets that Daring Outlaw and Sudden Strike would normally provide. (Unless the character was fighting one-handed or something. Then it would probably be reasonable.)

[arkol]

Goatmen I see what you mean but that build is not eligible for Daring Outlaw. Daring OUtlaw needs 2d6 sneak and feat rogue gives you no sneak so... no such abuse.

[Riffington]

At least according to my reading of RAW, you don't need any special rule. At any given level, if two classes advance the same feature, you just advance it once. So if you take Swashbuckler, Rogue, or both in any given level, then you advance the [Rogue+Swashbuckler level] once for that level.

Thus, a seventh level Barbarian1 /Rogue6//Fighter1/Swashbuckler6 would count as a seventh level [Rogue+Swashbuckler] unless he happened to take the Barbarian and the Fighter on the same level. In that case, the progression brings him to 6th rather than 7th.

In no way would he be 12th.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I would say that's 5 levels of Sneak Attack/Dodge progression.

But things do get sticky when alternate entrance methods and class variants get thrown in: I wouldn't give a Ninja 10//Swashbuckler 3/Feat Rogue 7 the +10d6 against flat-footed targets that Daring Outlaw and Sudden Strike would normally provide. (Unless the character was fighting one-handed or something. Then it would probably be reasonable.)

Even if that worked, that's not a Daring Outlaw abuse, that's just the result of snagging SA on one side and SS on the other. I would probably do a lot better with Ninja 7/SS 2//Rogue 9. You end up with 4d6 Sudden Strike, 7d6 SA, and proper use of PrCs can boost that even further.

[arkol]

Riffington that's more or less what I was sugesting, but with a easier to understand ruling. To me at least

Basically to get the beneficts of such feats, you add both classes that contribute to it, but the bonus caps at your character level.

[Goatman_Ted]

Even if that worked, that's not a Daring Outlaw abuse, that's just the result of snagging SA on one side and SS on the other.

I would call full sneak attack through Swashbuckler/Feat Rogue at a one feat investment abusive. Not broken, not overpowered, but abusive.

[Riffington]

I would call full sneak attack through Swashbuckler/Feat Rogue at a one feat investment abusive. Not broken, not overpowered, but abusive.

It's actually very weak. Remember that you get the sneak attack progression of the Feat Rogue (i.e. zero)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you want to use cheese, go something like Duskblade 10// Rogue 1/ Ninja 1/ Spellthief 1/ Psychic Rogue 1/ Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Assassin 1/ Shadow Thief of Amn 1/ PrCa 1/ PrCb 1/ PrCc 1 etc. to get a Fighter BAB with 1d6 sneak attack or sudden strike per character level, with Martial Study/Stance for Assassin's Stance. Play an outsider race and Polymorph into a Kelvezu to get another +8d6 Sneak Attack on top of that. You could end up with a 12th level character with a combined 22d6 sneak attack and sudden strike.

Ruffington put it best, I think. You do not add your levels in those classes as the feat suggests, but instead look at each character level gained. If either of the classes in question was taken at a given level, add +1 to the proposed total for your class feature progressions. If a character starts out Rogue 3// Swashbuckler 3, and ends up Rogue 3/ Wizard 3// Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 3, he would not be considered a 6th level Rogue/Swashbuckler for purposes of Daring Outlaw.

[Eloel]

The real question is, what happens when you get SA Fighter and Feat Rogue?
SA Fighter 3/Swashbuckler 3/Feat Rogue 14
Gives you 11d6 (!) sneak attack, 7 fighter feats (let's say 6 as we use one for Daring Outlaw), and the Swashbuckler reflex & dodge, along with Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 14 progressions.
Compared to non-variant, that is 4 extra feats and 4d6 extra SA, along with whatever reflex and dodge bonuses.

This is not really about gestalt, but as we're talking of Daring Outlaw, thought it would be appropriate to ask.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I would call full sneak attack through Swashbuckler/Feat Rogue at a one feat investment abusive. Not broken, not overpowered, but abusive.

Feat Rogue /=Rogue. It doesn't have SA, so the feat doesn't progress SA.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Feat Rogue /=Rogue. It doesn't have SA, so the feat doesn't progress SA.

Feat Rogue is indeed Rogue, just with a class feature substituted. The name 'Feat Rogue' is just a nickname, it's still officially just called Rogue. "These variants simply swap one or more of that class's features for one or more class features of another class." It does not change what class it is, it just switches some of its class features. If a Cleric uses the Spontaneous Domain Casting variant in PH2, it's no less a Cleric than one which spontaneously casts Cure or Inflict spells. If a Sorcerer trades his familiar for Metamagic Specialist from PH2, he's no less a Sorcerer. Just the same, a Rogue who trades his Sneak Attack class feature for the Fighter's bonus feat class feature is no less a Rogue than one straight out of the PHB.

[arkol]

But without sneak attack you can't qualify for Daring Outlaw.

[Riffington]

Feat Rogue is indeed Rogue, just with a class feature substituted. The name 'Feat Rogue' is just a nickname, it's still officially just called Rogue. "These variants simply swap one or more of that class's features for one or more class features of another class." It does not change what class it is, it just switches some of its class features. If a Cleric uses the Spontaneous Domain Casting variant in PH2, it's no less a Cleric than one which spontaneously casts Cure or Inflict spells. If a Sorcerer trades his familiar for Metamagic Specialist from PH2, he's no less a Sorcerer. Just the same, a Rogue who trades his Sneak Attack class feature for the Fighter's bonus feat class feature is no less a Rogue than one straight out of the PHB.

That's all true and wonderful, but you still don't get any sneak attack from stacking your rogue and swashbuckler levels if neither your swashbuckler nor your rogue levels will supply you with sneak attack.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

But without sneak attack you can't qualify for Daring Outlaw.

It goes Sneak Attack Fighter 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Feat Rogue 14, thus gaining 2d6 sneak attack from Fighter levels. Your combined Swashbuckler+Rogue levels comes to 17, for 9d6 sneak attack, plus the 2d6 from Fighter makes it 11d6 at level 20. Personally I'd get four Fighter levels to qualify for Melee/Ranged Weapon Mastery, which combined with Weapon Specialization is far better than the loss of 1d6 sneak attack.

[Riffington]

Your combined Swashbuckler+Rogue levels comes to 17, for 0d6 sneak attack, plus the 2d6 from Fighter makes it 2d6 at level 20.

[arkol]

I guess it's one of those things that would be open to interpretation and RAW vs RAI and all that. But Biffoniacus_Furiou clearly you can see that at the very least that's exploiting a loophole and that most sane DMs would not allow it.