Jotunbrud (aka Powerful Build)

[JellyPooga]

Races of Faerun has the feat Jotunbred, which basically gives the character the Powerful Build trait. It is, however, limited to two types of Human (and you have to take it at 1st level, but that's beside the point).

How powerful is the Powerful Build trait and would it be unbalancing to widen the requirements of the feat to something like:

Jotunbred
Prerequisites: Medium size, Racial Strength bonus or X/Y Human
Benefit: You gain the Powerful Build extraordinary ability
Special: May only be taken at 1st level

I just thought it odd that an Orog; taller and much stronger than the average human, for example, could not take this feat and in fact, an average Human with it technically has an advantage over an average Orog without it in, say, a grapple, ECL being unequal (Orog:Human - 3:1) and everything (Orog has +3 Str bonus vs. Humans +0, but Human also gets +4 from Jotunbred)!

[Yuki Akuma]

On average, Powerful Build gives you 1 or 2 extra points of damage. It's about the same as Weapon Focus Specialisation.

[Eloel]

On average, Powerful Build gives you 1 or 2 extra points of damage. It's about the same as Weapon Focus.

Powerful Build also gives you +4 to Grapple, +4 to Trip, +4 to Disarm. That's like 4 feats compiled into 1...

[Tsotha-lanti]

So long as you keep regional feats as regional feats (i.e. only available at character level 1), you're not screwing with balance that bad by changing the region/race requirement. Jotunbred really isn't that much more powerful than the regional feats in the PGtF (in fact, it's one of the very few 3.0 FR regional feats that measure up to the 3.5 FR regional feats). With feats like Tireless (immune to fatigued, exhausted reduced to fatigued...), Fearless, etc. around, it's just another good choice, rather than a superior choice.

[JellyPooga]

On average, Powerful Build gives you 1 or 2 extra points of damage. It's about the same as Weapon Focus Specialisation.

Huh , I never actually considered the damage implications...I was more interested in the bonus to Grapple, Bull Rush, etc. (and more specifically Intimidate ).

@Tsotha-lanti: so it's fairly ok in a 3.5 Forgotten Realms game, but what about a non-Realms game? I know the Realms materials are often viewed as being slightly skewed in comparison to non-Realms stuff, but what about this? As mentioned by ozgun92, it does appear to replicate some of the bonuses of about 4-6 feats (Monkey Grip, Improved Bull Rush/Grapple/Trip/Sunder/Disarm)...knock off a few 'effective feats' worth because it doesn't grant the full benefit of those feats (i.e. you still provoke AoO), but are we still looking at something worth more than just one feat (prerequisites and all)?

[Croverus]

And does the bonus of that feat stack with Improved Bull Rush/Grapple/Trip/Disarm etc?

[JellyPooga]

And does the bonus of that feat stack with Improved Bull Rush/Grapple/Trip/Disarm etc?

The bonus from the "Improved X" feats is untyped, so yes it does.

[BooNL]

I'd allow it, but maybe add some prerequisites to it? Either some useless feat you wouldn't use otherwise, or make Jotunbred take up 2 feats. This will still limit it to humans, or characters using flaws (and if you're using flaws, you're cheesing it out anyway...).

Bonusses from larger monsters stack with Improved X, so you could be looking at a +8 bonus if you combine those feats. Higher if you manage to get Enlarge Person on yourself!

[Tsotha-lanti]

@Tsotha-lanti: so it's fairly ok in a 3.5 Forgotten Realms game, but what about a non-Realms game? I know the Realms materials are often viewed as being slightly skewed in comparison to non-Realms stuff, but what about this? As mentioned by ozgun92, it does appear to replicate some of the bonuses of about 4-6 feats (Monkey Grip, Improved Bull Rush/Grapple/Trip/Sunder/Disarm)...knock off a few 'effective feats' worth because it doesn't grant the full benefit of those feats (i.e. you still provoke AoO), but are we still looking at something worth more than just one feat (prerequisites and all)?

So long as you keep the feat a regional feat, it should work. If you introduce the FR regional feats into another game, the difference is basically none. (There's nothing "balancing them out" in FR - it's just a bit of added power for all PCs and for humanoid NPCs.) If you introduce just a few of them as regular feats, though, they become way too desirable and powerful compared to other feats.

[paddyfool]

You could nerf it by making it come with its own flaw. For instance, you could say "as powerful build, but you also take a size penalty to AC as if large", or if you want to be mean about it "a size penalty to AC and to hit as if large".

[LibraryOgre]

On average, Powerful Build gives you 1 or 2 extra points of damage. It's about the same as Weapon Specialisation.

In every weapon, however.

[Yuki Akuma]

In every weapon, however.

If Weapon Specialisation gave a bonus to damage for every weapon, it might be a passable feat.

Probably not. An extra 2 damage isn't a lot.

[JellyPooga]

Higher if you manage to get Enlarge Person on yourself!

Strictly, as I've written it (with Medium Size as a Prerequisite), if you used Enlarge Person on someone with the feat, they'd no longer gain the benefits of the feat (so all Enlarge Person would do would be increase Str, space and reach and decrease Dex...no additional bonus to Grapple etc.)

[OzymandiasVolt]

(Psst! It's JotunbrUd, not JotunbrEd!)

Yeah, Powerful build can be good or bad depending on what you're trying to do with it.

[JellyPooga]

(Psst! It's JotunbrUd, not JotunbrEd!)

Hey, so it is

[Eloel]

Powerful Build is the ONLY way to make Reaping Mauler a -however weak- usable choice, they have the same restriction, they screw you if you go large.

[Riffington]

It's a great feat for the grapple/trip/disarm, as already said (well worth two feats).

As to damage, it's decent if you can add on size and yet retain powerful build. If you start with a greatsword, you progress at 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6...
So if you can get big enough, you are adding more than a mere d6 to your damage (not that a d6 is anything to scoff at)

[LibraryOgre]

If Weapon Specialisation gave a bonus to damage for every weapon, it might be a passable feat.

Probably not. An extra 2 damage isn't a lot.

Unless, of course, you critical.

[Roderick_BR]

If I'm not wrong, it doesn't give you Powerful Build, as in, you can't use bigger weapons. You do, though gain all those bonus to those maneuvers as if you were one size category bigger (and gives you the ability to grapple some bigger creatures). I was homebrewing a feat once that gives these bonuses, but also gives you a -4 to hide/move silently checks (as if you were actually larger, if these changes are correct), then allow it to any large or smaller sized creature at 1st level (the reason on the large or smaller is that for bigger creatures, the size increase is not enough to give a size category change).
Then replace Monkey Grip for Wield Oversized Weapon.

[JellyPooga]

stuff

You're not wrong about it not giving the full abilities of Powerful Build. Making it inflict the penalties of being large as well as the benefits for opposed checks sounds like a good balancing factor. Big but unwieldy, so to speak. I'm not sure about giving the penalties to hit and AC though...probably a bit too harsh in light of the fact that you tend to rarely use the abilities it gives a bonus to.

[Devils_Advocate]

Powerful Build also gives you +4 to Grapple, +4 to Trip, +4 to Disarm.

And +4 to Bull Rush, and +4 to Overrun, and +4 to Sunder.

That's like 4 feats compiled into 1...

The Improved feats give other benefits -- mostly you stop provoking AoOs. Still, +4 to six things is pretty good, even if you only regularly use half of them.

Maybe tone it down to +2 and add on a -2 Hide penalty, too? And improved carrying capacity? That would all make sense for being halfway between Medium and Large size.

[Runner]

But to comeback to the early question:
Huh , I never actually considered the damage implications...I was more interested in the bonus to Grapple, Bull Rush, etc. (and more specifically Intimidate ).

Does Jotunbrud work for the Intimidate skill? Because this would again be handy in combination with the feat: Intimidating strike

Any views on this subject?

[AirGuitarGod32]

My question is Jotunbrund stacking with, say a Goliath or Half-Giant's Powerful Build. This seems nearly broken.

[HCL]

Its not that bad and not that good. Yeah, its like powerful build on a human, but it doesnt stack with Expansion or Enlarge Person (potions are cheap)

You also can't get other regional feats. Like, say, Wolf Berserker Lodge (+4 trip and counts for combat expertise)

EDIT: It looks like hammerfist is racial, not regional.

Again, by raw this does not stack with getting bigger or powerful build (not that you can get this feat on a goliath anyway). It treats you as large if advantageous to you not one size category higher.

[Yuki Akuma]

Holy threadnomancy, Batman!

(Why would Jotunbrud stack with Powerful Build? It grants Powerful Build. So you'd be able to treat yourself as being one size category larger... from two different sources. So you get to treat yourself as one size category larger. Yay for feat wasteage!)

[valadil]

IIRC there were two definitions for what powerful build did. One of them bumped you up to large. The other bumped you up by a size category. The first version is probably fine as a feat (since it's so easily replicated by a spell). The second is too powerful IMO. Of course if your wizards are competent it might not be a bad idea to give the fighter an overpowered feat.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Jotunbrud does NOT give Powerful Build, but rather, a watered down version of it that locks the bonuses into you counting as large, which means that it would stack poorly with actual Powerful Build races.

[Curmudgeon]

(Why would Jotunbrud stack with Powerful Build? It grants Powerful Build.

Not close. Not even in the same city.

Jotunbrud doesn't grant everything Powerful Build does, because it lacks any help with weapons, as Roderick_BR pointed out. Jotunbrud plus Monkey Grip plus Weapon Focus plus a masterwork weapon is almost as good, except that there are still a bunch of things that make special exceptions only for Powerful Build and not for Jotunbrud -- like every one of these feats:

• Rock Hurling
• Improved Rock Hurling
• Fling Ally
• Fling Enemy
• Knockback
• Rampaging Bull Rush
• Powerful Wild Shape

Powerful Build occupies a different state entirely than Jotunbrud.

[herrhauptmann]

Races of Faerun has the feat Jotunbred, which basically gives the character the Powerful Build trait. It is, however, limited to two types of Human (and you have to take it at 1st level, but that's beside the point).

How powerful is the Powerful Build trait and would it be unbalancing to widen the requirements of the feat to something like:

Jotunbred
Prerequisites: Medium size, Racial Strength bonus or X/Y Human
Benefit: You gain the Powerful Build extraordinary ability
Special: May only be taken at 1st level

I just thought it odd that an Orog; taller and much stronger than the average human, for example, could not take this feat and in fact, an average Human with it technically has an advantage over an average Orog without it in, say, a grapple, ECL being unequal (Orog:Human - 3:1) and everything (Orog has +3 Str bonus vs. Humans +0, but Human also gets +4 from Jotunbred)!

To opener:
I read this, and at first thought you were asking about using Jotunbrud as written.

I personally am against letting someone spend a feat, and in exchange getting a large part of someone elses racial benefits (goliath, half-giant etc).

But if you're deadset on doing this, I recommend changing the prereqs to: Human from Region X. OR Racial strength bonus and Minimum strength of Z. However, the character using your new Jotunbrud wouldn't be unbalanced, but you did just take away a reason to play one of the races with a LA that have Powerful Build as a racial bonus. So races that get Powerful Build, should get a boost, perhaps a free feat.

To Runner:
Bad Runner! Bad! No thread necromancy! *smacks with newspaper*
The phrasing of Jotunbrud (as written) specifies "opposed rolls." So it looks like it would work with Intimidate skill, where your skill check is opposed by targets level check. If being a size larger would be advantageous.

[Darrin]

Powerful Build is the ONLY way to make Reaping Mauler a -however weak- usable choice, they have the same restriction, they screw you if you go large.

There is another way. Leviathan Hunter (Stormwrack) grants Clever Wrestling even if you don't qualify for the feat (by say... oh, I dunno... being LARGE?)