An Illegitimate Compilation of the Things D&D Forgot

[imp_fireball]

Attribute Feats


Industrialized Setting General Fluff Specifics That You Might Encounter

Spoiler

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D&D rarely breaches the realm of fantasy (at least in the books anyway). Here's some things to take note of

In a 21st century modern setting:

- Travel is easier and faster. Rations last longer (better preservation technology). PCs rarely get tired as quickly (they are not always walking the entire way and clothes offer better environ adaptation). Vehicles are limited by terrain depending on their own stats and maneuverability (which can use modern rules or your own iteration thereof).

- Technology is not always immediately effective (no move/standard action and boom unless you're using a bomb or firearm). Most technology offers gradual benefits over a period of time. Survival gear provides a benefit over time. Hacking a computer can take hours or days or even weeks. The best technology is either military grade or industrial grade, made to provide productivity benefits over a long period of time - heavy machinery typically takes longer to activate than light machinery.

- Amplifiers do wonderous things to sound. Assuming a bard has hooked up an electronic amplifier they can manipulate their bardic music. Countersong also has a higher radius depending on an amplifier's volume. Microphones and sound systems can be made to be loud enough that listening to them is easier than listening to most other things (ie. a person in armor making no effort to move silently as listed in SRD).

- Characters naturally know more about the world about them due to media and the internet.

- Associations can be bigger without necessarily being governments or nations in their own rights. Entire empires in the dozens vie for global control and with only a rarely broadcasted war now and then. The threat of extinction through war (ie. nuclear winter) hangs over the heads of many and an age of caution has been continuing for some time. A common theme is financial might and greed (being the motivator) rather than magic, although magic can take prescience through D&D.

- Whole new adventuring opportunities lie in the modern world that were unthinkable in a typical fantasy setting.

Some Mechanical Wonkery

Spoiler

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Electric Blade
Martial Light Weapon
Damage: 1d6 Slashing/Piercing + 1d4 Electric
Range (thrown): 15ft.

Introduced into USMC during the Euro/American arms race of 2019, the electro blade is a brutal response to enemy soldiers that use performance enhancing drugs. Before this weapon reached government bids, a simple stab wound inflicted upon someone under the influence of a performance enhancing drug wouldn't stop them, however the electric blade's ability to literally taser a wound and cause incredible pain thereof has proven more than sufficient in incapicitating an opponent, even when their pain threshold has been considerably risen.

The Electric Blade has become a standard weapon of all USMCs. It was agreed upon that it required no familiarity training, for being literally identical in weight, balance and use to previous knives. The electric discharge is also automated whenever skin-penetration level pressure is detected (also against things tougher than skin, such as metal). The blade can also be 'activated' with the tap of a button and another tap to turn it off again.
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The Electric Blade can deal electric damage against anyone close to a conductive surface and thus the electric damage applies when rolling above an opponent's touch AC. It deals additional piercing/slashing damage when rolling above total AC as normal.

The blade itself is made of a complex alloy that is otherwise identical in toughness and hardness to titanium. It has hardness 12 and 3 hp.

Turning on/off the blade is a free action, but the act of turning it on and off again in the same round adds up to a swift action (also factors in time for the blade to rapidly 'cool down').

Successfully hitting an enemy with a thrown blade and dealing 2 damage or higher means that the blade is rooted in the enemy's body. The blade must be removed as part of a move action, or the enemy will continually suffer 1d4 electrical damage each round following (battery 'loses power' at GM discretion).

Parts Crafting

Craft: Weapons DC 40
Craft: Electronics DC 20 (with battery already made) or DC 30 (to produce battery)


Completion: Techcraft DC 20

The Electric Blade contains a small but powerful lithium battery that can rapidly discharge kill-grade voltages. The blade is perfectly measured for throwing as well. It is so well measured and grooved in fact that special machinery is usually required for reproducing each striation.

This is usually what it takes to get a high enough craft modifier to produce the blade itself.

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Adrenal Stim

An adrenaline stimulant is a drug that can be taken in any manner. Usually by whatever means, it contains instructions (if not, then a knowledge: local check must be made to remember 'rumors' or knowledge: science and technology check at a much higher DC, since it involves past studied knowledge of the affects of adrenaline on the body), that can be prescribed or simply generically labeled (has no affect either way). A syringe is often preferred as stim filled, clean syringes can be bought enmasse and usually one injection is enough for one dose (for an adult) in order to not cause heart failure. A dirty syringe (one that has been 'shared'), can result in transmission of diseases at GM discretion.

Upon imbibing an adrenal stim, the character undergoes one round of being dazed before acquiring the affects of rage (as the rage spell description). In addition to rage, the user may effectively double their hp, the top half applying as temporary hitpoints that subtract from the bottom half once the affects of adrenaline faid in addition to temporarily acquiring endurance as the feat (if they already have endurance, double the benefits). Adrenaline can last for as much as 50 rounds or longer. Afterwards, a user usually becomes fatigued on a FORT save with a DC equal to 15 + however much damage they suffered while high (nonlethal damage does not count).

Craft

Adrenal Stims contain no constituent parts, instead only requiring a Craft: Chemical check DC 15 (or Craft: Alchemy check at a higher DC) if synthetic. Natural adrenaline can also be used, however it must be measured with a Craft: Chemical DC 12 and is a lot harder to acquire. Adrenaline is contraband to a lot of states, which may play an affect in an adventure.

Addiction

Drugs can be addictive. Continual use of Adrenal Stims (quantity at GM discretion, usually dependant on character CON score) means a DC 10 will save or the user becomes addicted and is continually exhausted or fatigued when not experiencing the type of high that Adrenal Stims offer (even after rest).

Addiction can be broken with a significant period of non-use and a DC 20 will save (or complex will save, at GM discretion).

Prolonged addiction to Adrenal Stims doesn't really have any negative attribute affects however the user may gravitate more towards savagery at times (personality quirks).

Associations Supplement

[TSED]

Check out d20 Modern.

[Dagren]

Check out d20 Modern.

Yeah, I wouldn't say that D&D forgot this stuff as much as it's way outside it's intended scope.

[imp_fireball]

This is for people who want to play using D&D than construed D20 modern. Heck, I even referenced d20 modern.

How much more convincing do you need?

[Dienekes]

Convincing of what?

You've pretty much pointed out that DnD wasn't set with the use of technology. Anyone can figure that out, the game has continually had a pseudo-medieval feel.

If you're trying to suggest something else I would like to know, but as is written your pointing out what technology could do in a setting that does not and was never intended to have that technology.

[imp_fireball]

Anyone can figure that out, the game has continually had a pseudo-medieval feel.

Please explain to me what this 'feel' is. Sure, the theme was laid out, but it doesn't mean it can't be manipulated.

If it's impossible, prove it with evidence.

[Jane_Smith]

I can prove it is possible. In the 3.0 PHB they even had stats for lazor guns for christ sakes...

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Please explain to me what this 'feel' is. Sure, the theme was laid out, but it doesn't mean it can't be manipulated.

If it's impossible, prove it with evidence.

The feel? Ummm...it has swords, bows, medieval-style armor, foes commonly found in medieval legend, knights, crusaders, mages...it runs on a monetary system of gold, silver, copper, and bartering, it has small feudal towns and large castles...

Yes, it can be manipulated. But the game "as is" has a decidedly medieval flavor...stretching back towards the Dark Ages and Ancient Greece in some directions, over towards the Far East in others, and all the way up to the Renaissance in some.

You can change that, of course, as the game is, at it's core, nothing but a rules system.

You haven't done that here though...you've just stated some (IMHO) fairly obvious results of changing it. What, pray tell, is the purpose of this thread? I'm honestly puzzled.

[The Mentalist]

I can prove it is possible. In the 3.0 PHB they even had stats for lazor guns for christ sakes...

Wasn't that the DMG?

[Jane_Smith]

Er, ya, dmg. My bad.

[Dienekes]

Please explain to me what this 'feel' is. Sure, the theme was laid out, but it doesn't mean it can't be manipulated.

If it's impossible, prove it with evidence.

It's a game system nothing is impossible as long as you have the intelligence to rework the system for yourself.

However, you have not done that. You've merely made a list of things to consider to an industrial campaign if you so choose to make one. Awesome, good job. But why the hell would you have some idiot with a sword in an industrial campaign? Why wouldn't you just make a whole new system that would probably better fit your needs?

Take your opening statement, "D&D rarely breaches the realm of fantasy"

DnD was, and is, marketed as a "Fantasy Role-Playing Game" why would it breach the realm of the genre that is it's target genre?

But I find it hard to say that Industrial settings were forgotten to be put in anymore than they forgot to make the characters gritty and realistic beings that could die in 1 hit with a sword. They simply did not intend the system to be used that way.

As for this "feel" Djinn already had me covered. Thank ya Djinn.

[Jane_Smith]

I actually once tried to make a project to make a more dnd-styled version of d20 modern/future by making 20-level progression classes, etc. Was interesting being a genetically-created psionic in a sci-fi game. One reason i never liked d20 modern/future was the entire cash system - where 30 flashlights purchased seperately will end up costing you more then a hummer. -_- But, ya, used dnd 3.5 as the base 'template', if youd like to work up a system together i could give you some of my old notes?

[Zeta Kai]

If we're honestly going to catalogue things that D&D doesn't do well or neglected, then I've got one: Body Damage. Targeting a specific part of an opponent's body, hitting it, & statting the results. Critical hits can approximate headshots & other vital strikes, but it's a poor facsimile.

[Mando Knight]

Was interesting being a genetically-created psionic in a sci-fi game.

Huh. Like this guy?

[Jane_Smith]

No. More like this girl. The game was based as us being part of a goverment branch of special opts. We had cybernetics and genetic 'freaks'. Mine was a bit of a mix, psionic with cybernetic implants, like shock-absorber, etc.

[TSED]

In the future, the technology of 'pants' was loss?

[Jane_Smith]

-shrugs- You try finding a better non-jedi psionic sci-fi portrait, then you get the right to bitch!

[imp_fireball]

It's a game system nothing is impossible as long as you have the intelligence to rework the system for yourself.

However, you have not done that. You've merely made a list of things to consider to an industrial campaign if you so choose to make one. Awesome, good job. But why the hell would you have some idiot with a sword in an industrial campaign? Why wouldn't you just make a whole new system that would probably better fit your needs?

Take your opening statement, "D&D rarely breaches the realm of fantasy"

DnD was, and is, marketed as a "Fantasy Role-Playing Game" why would it breach the realm of the genre that is it's target genre?

But I find it hard to say that Industrial settings were forgotten to be put in anymore than they forgot to make the characters gritty and realistic beings that could die in 1 hit with a sword. They simply did not intend the system to be used that way.

As for this "feel" Djinn already had me covered. Thank ya Djinn.

The main concern is the utter lack of flavor in science fiction/modern. The d20 modern/future seems to apply flavor to compensate for mechanics. It's a psychological process that doesn't convince players to have interesting, evolving campaigns where the characters grow, etc., etc.

D20 D&D on the other hand has thousands of PRCs and classes in homebrew, supplements and books to accomodate every modicum of flavor imagineable. By introducing science fiction and/or modern elements into D&D settings, I'm hoping that the resulting psychology will encourage players to expand upon science fiction/modern flavour.

There's no fun in simply calling somebody a 'fast hero'. What is he really? Would he be a fighter that specializes in fast attacks via feats? Is he a variant with high reflex saves? Or is he just the cookie cutter model repressed through d20 modern? Also, races are simply pathetic in d20 modern/future. There's little focus on creating characters or choosing races. Little creativity. Players are more likely to create stock characters - at least D&D provides (albeit cookiecutter) motives for such characters (good vs. evil, etc., etc.). Instead of choosing one of the thousands of races in the books, a player will most likely pick human because they relate to them the most and everything else wouldn't really tie into the story too well - although I'm sure many GMs don't run it that way, it's that much more likely.

Finally, by introducing science fiction and modern elements into D&D, it expands that specific system. It encourages new players and GMs to develop more unique settings - warhammer 40k is a pretty strong mix of fantasy and science fiction smacked together? Could you ever concieve of that in modern or future with the rules package? Not really.

Also, who wants to learn a new system? I'm fine with D&D, it's got all of the mechanics I need (and for new GMs, mechanics for combat are all that's necessary... anything else is horribly simplified in comparison).

Combat is also arguably the best in the D&D system (not 4e, I kind of despise 4e).

And if you argue that creating a setting that doesn't suit the 'flavor of d20 modern' is contradictory considering I'm equally arguing that it could be better suited to D&D, I'll easily counter with:

A. D&D has more supplements and books than d20 modern (there's more to take from that).

and

B. D&D is simpy more popular. There's far more possibilities in D&D than d20 modern. Why seperate the two?

Heck, you can convert the classes from D20 modern into D&D simply by having a variant of a commoner that's 'tough', 'smart', etc. - 'toughened civilians' are even easier.

Ordinaries are also ridiculous. It's too construed to do anything fun with them; whereas you could have a commoner grapple one of the PCs and throw him over a ledge - even though it's a commoner.

I could go on but I won't.

I'll give you some examples of modern D&D later on.

@Jane Smith: Yah that'd be great.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The main concern is the utter lack of flavor in science fiction/modern. The d20 modern/future seems to apply flavor to compensate for mechanics. It's a psychological process that doesn't convince players to have interesting, evolving campaigns where the characters grow, etc., etc.

What? Why is this true? Some of my most interesting characters have come from d20 Modern, and some of the most exciting and involving campaigns I've been involved in have been from the same. Remember...flavor is applied by the player, regardless of what the books say. A generic system can, in fact, allow for more variety than standard D&D.

D20 D&D on the other hand has thousands of PRCs and classes in homebrew, supplements and books to accomodate every modicum of flavor imagineable. By introducing science fiction and/or modern elements into D&D settings, I'm hoping that the resulting psychology will encourage players to expand upon science fiction/modern flavour.

Why not simply allow them to expand upon the flavour that already exists in d20 Modern...a game which handles Science Fiction and Modern elements better than traditional D&D.

There's no fun in simply calling somebody a 'fast hero'. What is he really? Would he be a fighter that specializes in fast attacks via feats? Is he a variant with high reflex saves? Or is he just the cookie cutter model repressed through d20 modern?

Well, remember this. In D&D, your class is your profession. A Fighter fights. A Wizard is a spellcaster. A Cleric is a priest of a God.

In d20 Modern, on the other hand, your class is a framework. You aren't a Fast Hero in the world...you're a stunt driver, an olympic runner, a paper boy, a marine scout, a cyclist, or any number of other occupations. A tough hero is a lumberjack, a hired thug, a professional boxer, a bouncer, a motorcyclist, a buff businessman, or anything else. He's definitely not a cookie-cutter...it's just a generic model that can encompass, at it's core, ANY TYPE OF MODERN CHARACTER...something D&D can not do with it's pigeonholed classes. Not that I feel D&D is a bad system at all (I happen to love it), but it must be said. Yes, a Fighter can say he's a bartender...but to the player, he's a Fighter. I've never seen a d20 Modern player consider his character a "Fast Hero." Considering him a "Gunslinger," sure. But that's an advanced class...those serve to define your character through flavor and mechanics. Like the classes you claim d20 Modern doesn't have, in fact. So it does...they're just not the base classes.

In fact, when my RL d20 Modern games were still running, our characters, when we were asked, were as follows...and I quote (well, not quote, but remember).

Me (Our "Bard"): I'm a detective, drummer, and Rastafarian. (Fast Hero/Charismatic Hero/Smart Hero/Gunslinger/Personality)
Our "Wizard:" I'm a grumpy old jewish computer engineer. (Smart Hero/Fast Hero/Technomancer)
Our "Fighter:" I'm a Department 7 official. (Fast Hero/Tough Hero/Strong Hero/Archaic Weapon Master/Gunslinger)
Our "Medic:" I'm a graduate student of Medicine at John's Hopkin's University, doing forensic work for Department 7 as a special internship before going on to a career in nuerology. (Smart Hero/Dedicated Hero/Field Medic)

Not one case of "I'm a (Class Name)." It didn't even cross our minds.

Also, races are simply pathetic in d20 modern/future. There's little focus on creating characters or choosing races. Little creativity. Players are more likely to create stock characters - at least D&D provides (albeit cookiecutter) motives for such characters (good vs. evil, etc., etc.). Instead of choosing one of the thousands of races in the books, a player will most likely pick human because they relate to them the most and everything else wouldn't really tie into the story too well - although I'm sure many GMs don't run it that way, it's that much more likely.

I need examples. My d20 Modern games have gone like this: we pick our character races based on the character in question, who is, in fact, a character. A more generic system allows us to focus more on the character, and less on the mechanics behind that character, generally resulting in the most vivid and realistic characters of any of the D&D variants that I've ever played. They're definitely more convincing and compelling that the characters I've usually seen in D&D.

Finally, by introducing science fiction and modern elements into D&D, it expands that specific system. It encourages new players and GMs to develop more unique settings - warhammer 40k is a pretty strong mix of fantasy and science fiction smacked together? Could you ever concieve of that in modern or future with the rules package? Not really.

Why not? d20 Modern has Orcs and the like, and it's easy to homebrew other monsters. The Basic and Advanced classes together can deal with almost any character concept, and the class formatting has a pattern into which it is easy to insert your own abilities, classes, and feats, making a game that is actually easier to adapt than traditional D&D. So why not expand on that system, rather than trying to adapt traditional D&D and it's traditional class-based roles? D20 Modern isn't really as class-based as it appears...don't think of it like normal D&D.

Also, who wants to learn a new system? I'm fine with D&D, it's got all of the mechanics I need (and for new GMs, mechanics for combat are all that's necessary... anything else is horribly simplified in comparison).

The number of new rules D20 Modern includes can be counted on the fingers of 1 hand. Aside from that, it's things like technology rules and vehicle rules...which you'd have to include anyway. This time, however, they're done for you. Quite well, in many cases.

Combat is also arguably the best in the D&D system (not 4e, I kind of despise 4e).

And that's the combat system that d20 Modern uses as well.

And if you argue that creating a setting that doesn't suit the 'flavor of d20 modern' is contradictory considering I'm equally arguing that it could be better suited to D&D, I'll easily counter with:

A. D&D has more supplements and books than d20 modern (there's more to take from that).

Because it's better supported. There's more to take...but most of that is fantasy-aimed material. D20 Modern has some of the most interesting supplements out there, in my opinion. And, as stated, it's easy to homebrew. Finally, as it uses the same systems (almost entirely), many of that material from those D&D books can be converted or adapted for d20 Modern.

In short, I can't help but feel that you're trying to equate D20 Modern to D&D. You can't...they do different things.

D&D is made for a traditional fantasy world, where you what you can do is what you are. In fantasy novels and legends, you are a Knight or you are a Wizard...it's a profession, and comes complete with a list of skills that you MUST possess. D20 Modern is more fluid...you might be a fast, dexterous character (a Fast Hero), but you can be a rogue, a messanger, a barber, a dentist, a lawyer...or anything. Sure, the system lacks support...but it's easy to make your own if you know anything about homebrew or system balance. It's adaptable, modular, and effective.

For example...the following character of mine.

He's a gunslinging, fast-talking, motorcycle-riding Rastafarian drummer. He's also a detective for department 7, and has a very lively backstory and personality which I'm not getting into here (but he's neither bland nor cookie-cutter...and I can prove otherwise if pressed).

His class? Unimportant for who he is. But he's a Fast Hero 2/Charismatic Hero 3/Smart Hero 1/Personality 3/Gunslinger 1. His actual class matters little...it's just what he does. It's the CHARACTER that matters. He could, after all, be straight Fast Hero, or straight Charismatic Hero...all with the same character.

Could I make the same Druid character with the Fighter class? How about the Binder class? The Warlock class?

...I think not. Different systems, different methods, different goals. Both valid, effective, and most importantly...both fun.

[Debihuman]

If you are looking for an interesting Modern setting why not use Dark*Matter D20? It has everything a conspiracy theorist would want.

Honestly, my favorite "modern" game was the long defunct Chill game first by Pacesetter and then by Mayfair Games. There's been a long-time push to update to D&D but it has been held back due to lack of funding and probably because only a few dozen people even know about it.

It sounds like all you need is an imaginative DM to cull ideas from a variety of
sources. It's not like there aren't some already published settings that would fit your needs. For example, Darwin's World, Stargate SG1 D20 and a few others.

Hey Zeta, aren't there d20 games that use called shots? I'm sure there must be some setting that uses that mechanic. Although, to be fair, the only time my group ever used that was for shooting zombies in the head. Otherwise, it wasn't really ever needed.

Debby

[imp_fireball]

What? Why is this true? Some of my most interesting characters have come from d20 Modern, and some of the most exciting and involving campaigns I've been involved in have been from the same. Remember...flavor is applied by the player, regardless of what the books say. A generic system can, in fact, allow for more variety than standard D&D.



Why not simply allow them to expand upon the flavour that already exists in d20 Modern...a game which handles Science Fiction and Modern elements better than traditional D&D.



Well, remember this. In D&D, your class is your profession. A Fighter fights. A Wizard is a spellcaster. A Cleric is a priest of a God.

In d20 Modern, on the other hand, your class is a framework. You aren't a Fast Hero in the world...you're a stunt driver, an olympic runner, a paper boy, a marine scout, a cyclist, or any number of other occupations. A tough hero is a lumberjack, a hired thug, a professional boxer, a bouncer, a motorcyclist, a buff businessman, or anything else. He's definitely not a cookie-cutter...it's just a generic model that can encompass, at it's core, ANY TYPE OF MODERN CHARACTER...something D&D can not do with it's pigeonholed classes. Not that I feel D&D is a bad system at all (I happen to love it), but it must be said. Yes, a Fighter can say he's a bartender...but to the player, he's a Fighter. I've never seen a d20 Modern player consider his character a "Fast Hero." Considering him a "Gunslinger," sure. But that's an advanced class...those serve to define your character through flavor and mechanics. Like the classes you claim d20 Modern doesn't have, in fact. So it does...they're just not the base classes.

In fact, when my RL d20 Modern games were still running, our characters, when we were asked, were as follows...and I quote (well, not quote, but remember).

Me (Our "Bard"): I'm a detective, drummer, and Rastafarian. (Fast Hero/Charismatic Hero/Smart Hero/Gunslinger/Personality)
Our "Wizard:" I'm a grumpy old jewish computer engineer. (Smart Hero/Fast Hero/Technomancer)
Our "Fighter:" I'm a Department 7 official. (Fast Hero/Tough Hero/Strong Hero/Archaic Weapon Master/Gunslinger)
Our "Medic:" I'm a graduate student of Medicine at John's Hopkin's University, doing forensic work for Department 7 as a special internship before going on to a career in nuerology. (Smart Hero/Dedicated Hero/Field Medic)

Not one case of "I'm a (Class Name)." It didn't even cross our minds.



I need examples. My d20 Modern games have gone like this: we pick our character races based on the character in question, who is, in fact, a character. A more generic system allows us to focus more on the character, and less on the mechanics behind that character, generally resulting in the most vivid and realistic characters of any of the D&D variants that I've ever played. They're definitely more convincing and compelling that the characters I've usually seen in D&D.



Why not? d20 Modern has Orcs and the like, and it's easy to homebrew other monsters. The Basic and Advanced classes together can deal with almost any character concept, and the class formatting has a pattern into which it is easy to insert your own abilities, classes, and feats, making a game that is actually easier to adapt than traditional D&D. So why not expand on that system, rather than trying to adapt traditional D&D and it's traditional class-based roles? D20 Modern isn't really as class-based as it appears...don't think of it like normal D&D.



The number of new rules D20 Modern includes can be counted on the fingers of 1 hand. Aside from that, it's things like technology rules and vehicle rules...which you'd have to include anyway. This time, however, they're done for you. Quite well, in many cases.



And that's the combat system that d20 Modern uses as well.



Because it's better supported. There's more to take...but most of that is fantasy-aimed material. D20 Modern has some of the most interesting supplements out there, in my opinion. And, as stated, it's easy to homebrew. Finally, as it uses the same systems (almost entirely), many of that material from those D&D books can be converted or adapted for d20 Modern.

In short, I can't help but feel that you're trying to equate D20 Modern to D&D. You can't...they do different things.

D&D is made for a traditional fantasy world, where you what you can do is what you are. In fantasy novels and legends, you are a Knight or you are a Wizard...it's a profession, and comes complete with a list of skills that you MUST possess. D20 Modern is more fluid...you might be a fast, dexterous character (a Fast Hero), but you can be a rogue, a messanger, a barber, a dentist, a lawyer...or anything. Sure, the system lacks support...but it's easy to make your own if you know anything about homebrew or system balance. It's adaptable, modular, and effective.

For example...the following character of mine.

He's a gunslinging, fast-talking, motorcycle-riding Rastafarian drummer. He's also a detective for department 7, and has a very lively backstory and personality which I'm not getting into here (but he's neither bland nor cookie-cutter...and I can prove otherwise if pressed).

His class? Unimportant for who he is. But he's a Fast Hero 2/Charismatic Hero 3/Smart Hero 1/Personality 3/Gunslinger 1. His actual class matters little...it's just what he does. It's the CHARACTER that matters. He could, after all, be straight Fast Hero, or straight Charismatic Hero...all with the same character.

Could I make the same Druid character with the Fighter class? How about the Binder class? The Warlock class?

...I think not. Different systems, different methods, different goals. Both valid, effective, and most importantly...both fun.

The combat system is not the same. The different array of feats is different. Also the classes are more confined without multiclassing.

Additionally, background affects nothing in d20 modern. So what if you hailed from a family of gypsies who hunt in the wilderness to survive? You still gotta take firearms proficiency!

Also, read 'anonymous' comment in here: http://blog.microlite20.net/2009/05/...-week-day-two/

The blogger basically posted every reason why people like modern and vouched his appreciation for the system. Please note, that I've acknowledged every bit of this before forming my criticism (there's a lot to say, and a lot that probably hasn't been said yet).

[Dagren]

Additionally, background affects nothing in d20 modern. So what if you hailed from a family of gypsies who hunt in the wilderness to survive? You still gotta take firearms proficiency!

Maybe I'm missing something, but how is that different from D&D? Backstory doesn't have a mechanical effect there either.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Maybe I'm missing something, but how is that different from D&D? Backstory doesn't have a mechanical effect there either.

It has LESS of an effect, actually. D20 Modern at least has occupations which can be pulled from your backstory. And, incidently, can give you that Firearms Proficiency you would have gained as a gypsy.

[lesser_minion]

The d20 Call of Cthulhu Resident Evil variant had a called shots mechanic, and at some point I will write a variant combat system which will include the option to headshot your opponent. [/self-plug]

I kind of agree with the idea that it could be interesting to extend D&D into modern and futuristic settings instead of just having antimatter rifles which count as artifacts.

[imp_fireball]

For example...the following character of mine.

He's a gunslinging, fast-talking, motorcycle-riding Rastafarian drummer. He's also a detective for department 7, and has a very lively backstory and personality which I'm not getting into here (but he's neither bland nor cookie-cutter...and I can prove otherwise if pressed).

His class? Unimportant for who he is. But he's a Fast Hero 2/Charismatic Hero 3/Smart Hero 1/Personality 3/Gunslinger 1. His actual class matters little...it's just what he does. It's the CHARACTER that matters. He could, after all, be straight Fast Hero, or straight Charismatic Hero...all with the same character.

Could I make the same Druid character with the Fighter class? How about the Binder class? The Warlock class?

...I think not. Different systems, different methods, different goals. Both valid, effective, and most importantly...both fun.

The problem with all that is that there's no power gauge. Your rastafarian multi-tasking drummer ends up with too many levels all over the place. Sure he can do a lot of stuff, but he isn't as effective as the next guy who specialized. In fact, it's implied that he has to take these PRCs/classes/occupations in order to have that sort of a backstory and so fluff now becomes limited by mechanics. Even though that might not be the case, it's implied.

I know there's a lot of stuff 'implied' in D&D too (stuff that resulted in the onset of lawful stupid), but there's plenty of hackable material that can allow for a D&D modern setting very easily.

Occupations? Ever heard of associations? Associations offer perks and benefits for backstories too. Not to mention it has mechanics for focusing on the organisation itself. So it's no longer 'implied' that the people you work for are faceless denizens, never to show up in a campaign (merely because it's implied, the GM generally doesn't think about them).

As for classes being named for what they do - a rogue is a name. That's all. What's in a name? A rogue in fact, has plenty of skill points. He can be a trapmaker and a hunter. A taskmaster. A spy for a guild or government. An assassin. A busking, petty thief. An eavesdropping private eye. Those are all just basic skills, and a lot of them are required for a typical adventure in D&D.

A lawyer in D&D can argue his case with a diplomacy check. He can scare opposing witnesses with intimidate. He can spindoctor with bluff. A thug variant fighter with above average intelligence can have all those skills (assuming diplomacy is a class skill too), not to mention fight too (since he's a fighter, if you missed that part).

A rogue can use all his skills at level one. Level one. He doesn't need to wait for a GM to open up an ECL 10 adventure in order to invest all his levels in seven different PRCs/core classes to acquire access to all his skills - not to mention certain supplements allow the rogue to do more as well; such as tricks in complete scoundrel. Complete Scoundrel allows other classes to perform tricks as well.

The point I'm trying to make is that D20: Modern gives you the feeling that it's 'really open' and allows you to 'create any character you want' or allows a GM to 'think outside of combat' because it presents itself well in that manner. D&D allows the same thing. Both systems can be used for the same exact thing. But D&D allows more excitement at level one (combat is a kneejerk reaction for most GMs, but that's only due to typical lack of creativity; don't let that get to you).

Maybe I'm missing something, but how is that different from D&D? Backstory doesn't have a mechanical effect there either.

Neither system has any mechanical affect to do with backstory, although D&D does have regional feats and associations - that's only two of the supplementy things out there, though. There's probably more for all I know.

It has LESS of an effect, actually. D20 Modern at least has occupations which can be pulled from your backstory. And, incidently, can give you that Firearms Proficiency you would have gained as a gypsy.

Gypsies are often unemployed.

And if they are, in fact, employed, I imagine their resume or at least their short history wouldn't land them all that great of a job that requires responsibility (usually receiving training in use of firearms assumes responsibility) beyond being something like a janitor.

How many janitors use firearms (aside from those cleaning joints in a third world country... does modern account for that?)?

Also, feats in modern are pretty weak compared to a lot of what you might see in d&d - and I'm of the opinion that d&d SRD has a few unecessary feats out there when concerning things like single special attacks and weapon focus.

Feats in modern could be easily fixed by compiling a list of feats that could be acquired through skill points instead of feat slots. But at the same time, D&D already has homebrew for things like 'half-feats'.

Also, feats like weapon focus can easily be fixed with a variant to the feat itself - one I'm using involves a +1 for every +5 BAB after the first +1; so a 20th level fighter would have +10 to attack from weapon focus and greater weapon focus, instead of the horribly miniscule +2 that he'd get in RAW.

I'd also like to note that while D&D does demand multiclassing if you want to do more things - like say, have a barbarian that is proficient in all weapons, armor and shields.

But Modern practically assumes that you will multiclass. In fact, I'm assuming that it'd be difficult to get through a typical campaign without multiclassing, since everything (beyond the six base classes) is so specified. Players don't always multiclass for fluff in D&D either.

'Bad assery' is even harder in modern due to the power guage - to take on a small army like you can in D&D at say, 8th level, you might have to take something like 20 levels in Modern. Although that's where the 'different system' argument lies, it results in more scaled up campaigns for GMs who want to include difficult, monstrous encounters right off the bat.

There's less to be expected in a scaled up campaign in Modern as well - level 10 for modern doesn't tell the players anything, whereas a level 20 game for D&D usually leaves the players knowing that it will be epic level - of course, they still don't what the epic encounters will entail but they prepare accordingly (contrary to what it may seem, this can still contrast from what one might deem 'predictable' gameplay).

I kind of agree with the idea that it could be interesting to extend D&D into modern and futuristic settings instead of just having antimatter rifles which count as artifacts.

So I'm getting support... or rather, the potential for a change of mindset is there. I'm happy to see that.

[Juggernaut1981]

Seroiusly where are you trying to head with this??
d20 Steampunk?
d20 Magic Made My Gunblade?
d20 "Akira was real life"?

Poking around with the fact that the "skill monkey" classes can do lots of things with their skills is basically... dribbling crap. Really? Rogues could use their skills in Profession? Or Perform? Or Balance? or any of the other whopping list of skills or pseudo-skills or feat-skills or [insert some other half-baked, 3-quarter play-tested late 3.5 jank that WotC cooked up]...

One of the key structural points of d20Mod is this: Careers are semi-independent of skills and personal attributes. A strong person isn't just going to end up in full plate armour killing stuff. The dude from the wrong side of the civilised society stick is going to become a rage-filled maniac barbarian. The dude with lots of personal charisma is going to become a bard or have strange things happen during puberty and set fire to the cat accidentally and find out his has special powers (or that mum slept with a Red Dragon)...




So if you want to put pistols, light-sabres, cars and [insert other modern/sci-fi equipment here] into D&D3.5.... have fun with that. Enjoy creating d20Mod-Sideways. You'd be better off restructureing d20Mod to make it more fantasy... the system will behave better IMO.

[Worira]

Gypsies are often unemployed.

And if they are, in fact, employed, I imagine their resume or at least their short history wouldn't land them all that great of a job that requires responsibility (usually receiving training in use of firearms assumes responsibility) beyond being something like a janitor.

How many janitors use firearms (aside from those cleaning joints in a third world country... does modern account for that?)?

Yeah, uh...

[imp_fireball]

A strong person isn't just going to end up in full plate armour killing stuff.

Of course not. Neither does a fighter have to. Did you read anything?

The dude from the wrong side of the civilised society stick is going to become a rage-filled maniac barbarian. The dude with lots of personal charisma is going to become a bard or have strange things happen during puberty and set fire to the cat accidentally and find out his has special powers (or that mum slept with a Red Dragon)...

Not always. Depends on the setting. This is typical fan interpretation is a cornerstone problem of D&D. WotC isn't all that great since they imply a lot of things - in fact, I argue reasons why they suck a lot of the time. And although they barely play test anything either, D&D is old enough and has a wide enough fanbase that the stuff that endures and is used is what effectively stays and works and that can be trusted.

The same could be said for Modern but that's not the point of this discussion.

The point is allowing D&D to merge with other settings and reasons why it's better than simply creating a new darn system for the purpose - a new system that would just construe things inevitably and not allow freedom to merge fluff and mechanics. Don't get me wrong, if another system was made for a modern setting based off of D20 that was somehow similarly popular to D20: Modern then I would argue against that too. I don't have any personal grudge against Modern, in fact I've never played the system (I want to). Just so we make that clear.
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Also, how am I dribbling with the rogue? Again, fan interpretation. Fan interpretation can mean anything. If wotc implied that listen checks were made through walls, when in fact they could be made for anything involving listening, then fans would probably argue against anything involving not listening through walls, homebrew would be created for things that don't involve listening through walls, etc. It obviously needs to stop, but I know it won't. I just wish to change the mindset a little.

I don't want to destroy D20: Modern. I'm only looking for a psychological change towards what D&D is capable of. Here's how bad it is: Some people think that D&D only involves dungeon treking and can't possibly include anything else. If wilderness encounters aren't mentioned enough in RAW then they would ultimately go unnoticed and deemed as 'impossible'.
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A problem with occupations is that they can actually limit fluff in some ways. Every PC ends up employed and an adult (or close to one) - although most PCs are adults by D&D too.

Also, this attempt to cover classes in D&D with Modern limits the fluff concerning those classes. Not all psychic warriors are squires, for example.

[afroakuma]

...why is this even in Homebrew?

[imp_fireball]

...why is this even in Homebrew?

Any constructive input that you'd like to add?

EDIT: Mod can move this thread to an equivalent debating section if they wish.