Evocation Specialist Wizard: What?

[Zergrusheddie]

In our current group, our Wizard is an Evocation Specialist and he says that he can unleash 60 or 90 damage Fireballs with a Reflex that "no one should be able to make." Now, I know that Evocation tends not to be as powerful as a Batman Wizard and it can't even pump out as much damage as a Conjuration Specialist who knows what an Orb of Acid is but he is adamant that he will be blowing the battlefield away.

What I know about his character:
Drow Wizard 10
24 Base Intellect
Feats are at least Item Familiar, Energy Substitution, and Arcane Thesis: Fireball.
His Item Familiar is his staff and it is apparently a stick with a funnel at the top for all his cash that he receives.

So, how the hell is he doing 60 or 90 damage "all the time" and with a high save? Books allowed are Core (minus psionics) , PH2, and the SRD. I've looked through it and I am not sure how he is going to be as powerful as he says he is. Is he just blowing smoke or is there something I'm missing?

Best of luck y'all.
-Eddie

[Glimbur]

If nothing else, I suspect he's not understanding how Maximize Spell and Empower Spell interact. You don't take 1.5x normal max, you take normal max and add 0.5 x nd6.

[Myrmex]

As an ECL 12 character, he can easily afford a +6 headband of intellect, giving his fireballs a DC of 10 + 3 + 10 = 23 (24 to 25 with spell focuses). Which is good, but not great. If I am going to have an enemy fail a save, I'd rather it be for Charm Monster or Glitterdust.

Arcane Thesis will allow him to mitigate metamagic costs by using zero level metamagic adjustments to reduce the cost of fireball.

Example:

A maximized fireball is a level 6 spell. With arcane thesis applied, it is a fifth level spell. With energy substitution, the +0 goes to -1, so a maximized fireball now takes up a 4th level slot.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Arcane Thesis: Fireball and Maximize Spell. Sudden Empower, Sudden Maximize, or maybe a metamagic rod. LOL for a LA +2 wizard, though.

Also, behold http://img482.imageshack.us/i/savessriu4.jpg/
Average reflex save at that level is about +9. If nobody should be able to make the DCs for his spells, the DCs would be around 27. Unlikely, IMO.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Empowered Fireball is, on average, 52 damage for a 4th level spell. Maximized is 60 damage for a 5th level spell. IF he has improved/easy metamagic: maximise, an Empowered Maximised Fireball is 78 damage in average for a 5th level spell. IF he also has it for empower, empowering his fireballs is essentially free, too. So damage-wise, his claims are-or could be-true.

DC-wise we're looking at 24 base intelligence. That's 18 +2 drow +2 levels +2 age. Add a +4 headband and we have 28. That's +9 to DCs. Adding Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus is +2. So the Fireball DC is 10+9+2+3 or 23. Given that the average 10th level PC has a +3 base reflex, +2 from dexterity, +1-2 from resistance item, they are going to fail 75% of the time. But that's an average PC. Someone focusing on saves or just a rogue focusing on evasion has reflex saves 3-5 points higher; they will only fail 50% of the time.
So the claim that no-one could make his saves is untrue. At least for PCs, that is. Monsters can have lower saves, especially reflex.

[shadzar]

If nothing else, I suspect he's not understanding how Maximize Spell and Empower Spell interact. You don't take 1.5x normal max, you take normal max and add 0.5 x nd6.

So you are saying it is:

Nd6 + (Nd6/2)

[Zergrusheddie]

As an ECL 12 character, he can easily afford a +6 headband of intellect, giving his fireballs a DC of 10 + 3 + 10 = 23 (24 to 25 with spell focuses). Which is good, but not great. If I am going to have an enemy fail a save, I'd rather it be for Charm Monster or Glitterdust.

Arcane Thesis will allow him to mitigate metamagic costs by using zero level metamagic adjustments to reduce the cost of fireball.

Example:

A maximized fireball is a level 6 spell. With arcane thesis applied, it is a fifth level spell. With energy substitution, the +0 goes to -1, so a maximized fireball now takes up a 4th level slot.

Negative Metamagic is disallowed.

The High Save doesn't really phase me all that much; my Beguiler 12 trots out a 22 + Spell Level. It's the supposed "all the time!" that makes me wonder if he is doing something either wrong or extremely right.

[Glimbur]

So you are saying it is:

Nd6 + (Nd6/2)

As the SRD would tell you,

An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.

So you take the maximum of 10d6 (let's use fireball as the example) for 60 damage. That's what Maximize does. Then apply the Empower, which does half again as much damage. You don't take the 60 as your rolled result to feed into Empower, you roll 10d6 and get half of that on top of your 60.

Doing a large amount of damage to everything is not a bad way to start encounters... but it is vulnerable to several different counters like Energy Resistant critters (though he took Energy Substitution to have more options) or things with Evasion and good Ref, or simply very spread out enemies.

[Myrmex]

What he should have gone with was chain force missile (3rd or 4th level magic missile spell) or ice storm, instead of fireball. Neither offers any save, and ice storm has a duration longer than instantaneous. He could have extended it for free, and got some battlefield control out of dropping them somewhere for two full rounds.

[Brom]

Why is your friend doing a Drow Wizard?

IMHO? Start with an 18 INT, do a Gray Elf. 20 base INT right there. At level 12, you have 88, 000 GP. Enough for a 27, 500 GP Tome of Clear Thought and Intellect +1 and a Headband of Intellect +6. If he puts all three of the points he gets out of level ups (4th level, 8th level, 12th level) into INT, that gives him base INT 23. Stack the Tome and Headband on that, and you have INT 30. That should give his highest level spells (6th level) an unmodified DC of 26. Throw on Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, and you now have DC 28.

Rather than applying Metamagic at this point, in his position I'd get Sudden Metamagic and Metamagic Rods - maybe x2 of Maximize or Empower. At that point, get Heighten Spell, and let it rip with Heighted 6th level Fireballs or Disintegrates.

...I feel like I'm missing a way to amp the DC that I'm not considering. I am pretty sure (80%?) that there are ways to amp specific subschools of casting (if your DM is willing to change setting/subrace specific feats into generic feats, I know that there are like, four or five for Gnomes).

Blasting has it's place. I'm willing to argue for that. Despite what naysayers of wizardry say, it's fun and it can actually be effective. It DOES limit the number of encounters you do, and it DOES limit your versatility by making you use up multiple spell slots for blasting rather than just packing the single Slow spell that wins the fight, and it DOES have lots of barriers - Reflex saves for half, chances of bad rolling on dice, and monster energy resistances - but it's there and has a reason for being there. Slow might reduce the damage your enemy does, but with a little luck and some aggression, a Maximized Fireball followed by a Quickened Magic Missile oriented on a captain and his mob might take enemies out of the fight NOW, or allow your allies to do so, before anyone needs to get hurt.

Did I mention that it's also fun?

But yea. LA's on Wizards are OK for some races. Pixies come to mind - greater invisibility SLA's and flight and all. But the Drow LA, IMO, should be a +1, and even then I might hesitate to take it if I was just doing a Wizard - is Darkvision, Spell Resistance, a Dex Bonus, some low-level SLA's, and save bonuses worth lowering my casting level when I can take a hit to a dump stat rather than Con and still get my Int if I'm willing to cast a spell for Darkvision and SR while doing a 12th level Gray Elf?

Just my two cents. Or something.

[Myrmex]

Negative Metamagic is disallowed.

Then he will be burning through his higher level spell slots to do very vanilla elemental damage, that has a save, and SR.

The High Save doesn't really phase me all that much; my Beguiler 12 trots out a 22 + Spell Level. It's the supposed "all the time!" that makes me wonder if he is doing something either wrong or extremely right.

He is probably just ignorant, and doesn't realize that a DC 26, while good at level 12, doesn't mean "everyone always fails their saves." Even if he does do the full 90 damage, for a fifth level spell slot, most CR12 targets will still be around, either through sheer number of HD, or because they have spells or abilities that guard against level 3 spells. He is also going to have to face SR, which means, well, more problems.

[Myrmex]

But yea. LA's on Wizards are OK for some races. Pixies come to mind - greater invisibility SLA's and flight and all. But the Drow LA, IMO, should be a +1, and even then I might hesitate to take it if I was just doing a Wizard - is Darkvision, Spell Resistance, a Dex Bonus, some low-level SLA's, and save bonuses worth lowering my casting level when I can take a hit to a dump stat rather than Con and still get my Int if I'm willing to cast a spell for Darkvision and SR while doing a 12th level Gray Elf?

Just my two cents. Or something.

Gray elfs get -2 con, -2 str, +2 dex, +2 int.

[Zergrusheddie]

What he should have gone with was chain force missile (3rd or 4th level magic missile spell) or ice storm, instead of fireball. Neither offers any save, and ice storm has a duration longer than instantaneous. He could have extended it for free, and got some battlefield control out of dropping them somewhere for two full rounds.

He likes to play "Tim the Enchanter."

The reason I am simply not asking him, as I'm sure many of you are wondering, is because he is a far older player than I am. He is old enough to be my father and he has been playing for a far longer time than I have. Asking him would be rude on two areas; it would be insulting to him as he sees the younger/less experienced player doubting him and it would be bothersome to him if a 'kid' doubted him.

[Eldariel]

At the same time though, he's wrong. Those exact numbers won't be coming up. Twin + Maximize is 120 (as is Energy Admixtured Maximize and most other damage enhancers). Maximize+Empower is 78 (as Belial said). He clearly thinks the Empowered portion of the spell is maximized too, which is not the case.

It bears ensuring that he is following the rules. But yeah, with those sources, Arcane Thesis is the only metamagic reducer so he's probably just übermetamagicking his Balls. What I do wonder is how a level 10 Wizard is casting Empowered Maximized Fireball (level 6 slot, something he doesn't have available until next level) all day though. Unless, of course, he's UMDing a Staff... But doesn't sound likely. Make sure he knows you aren't allowing negative adjustment, 'cause it does sound like he's using Energy Substitution for a Level 5 Superball.

[Zergrusheddie]

Ok, I am an idiot who doesn't realize that most campaigns are no where NEAR like this one.


We are all monster races. Drow Beguiler, Lich Mystic Theurge, Drow Wizard, and the Ogre Half-Dragon Fighter. The game is meant to be extremely different and in turn the DM made Level Adjustments less harmful by letting us do by-offs easily. You know how your party is attacked by the Evil villains and end up being a massive pain in the butt? Well, we are that party. The DM wanted to try something different and at the "deep end of the Alignment Pool."

There is nothing used outside of PH1, PH2, SRD, Monster Manual 1, and Monster Manual 2. He doesn't really have the necessary splat books to pull off the "Cindy" Wizard where it's so much damage as to be silly.
The player hasn't played much since 3.5 came out and he mostly played in the days before that. He is "old fashioned" to use his term. He is lots of fun to play with though.

[Zergrusheddie]

But yeah, with those sources, Arcane Thesis is the only metamagic reducer so he's probably just übermetamagicking his Balls. What I do wonder is how a level 10 Wizard is casting Empowered Maximized Fireball (level 6 slot, something he doesn't have available until next level) all day though. Unless, of course, he's UMDing a Staff... But doesn't sound likely.

Item Familiar and he uses a staff. He was talking about buying spells into it. Maybe he has charges on it?

[Brom]

Gray elfs get -2 con, -2 str, +2 dex, +2 int.

o.O I've read the fine print on that a few times and would have sworn on a bible the small text said, ''instead of'' but now that I double check, it's ''in addition to''. My bad. Thanks.

[Keld Denar]

Back in the days of 2nd ed, Fireball WAS a really good spell. It was uncapped and there really wasn't much else out there. Also, the way saves worked in 2nd ed were kinda wonky. So yea, if hes an older player, he's probably still pretty nostalgic about the glory days of Fireball.

Unfortunately, 3.5 mechanics really shat on the Fireball. The damage cap is sad, and the presence of SR and Resistance also makes for Fireball's woes.

And as everyone's already demonstrated, its not unreasonable for him to get around the numbers he's bragging. Except maybe the 90 number...that sounds like he isn't using the correct rules for Empower + Maximize stacking. You might want to index that page for your next game, and if he drops a 90 point Fireball without rolling dice, you'll have the rules on hand to cite.

Regardless, Dominate Person or just about anything else a like leveled Beguiler can toss out outclass most Evocations anyway.

[Malacode]

Even if you don't want to "insult" him by asking, you could phrase the question in such a way that it -won't- insult or imply doubt. Sund like you're impressed with the number, and ask him to talk you through the explanation. Seems the simplest way to me.

[Mercenary Pen]

He likes to play "Tim the Enchanter."

The reason I am simply not asking him, as I'm sure many of you are wondering, is because he is a far older player than I am. He is old enough to be my father and he has been playing for a far longer time than I have. Asking him would be rude on two areas; it would be insulting to him as he sees the younger/less experienced player doubting him and it would be bothersome to him if a 'kid' doubted him.

If you want to know how he's done it, then change the way you ask him.

I agree you don't want to tackle this head-on and phrase it as "I am the local rules police, fear my mighty DMing!" but instead, ask how you would go about doing it yourself. Perhaps, as a cover story, you wanted to know how to do this in case you got the opportunity to play rather than DM... Then, hopefully, this guy'll be willing to go through it with you- maybe even with proper reference to all the sourcebooks- and should you spot anything suspect, you can perhaps gently put him back on track.

[Zergrusheddie]

Back in the days of 2nd ed, Fireball WAS a really good spell. It was uncapped and there really wasn't much else out there. Also, the way saves worked in 2nd ed were kinda wonky. So yea, if hes an older player, he's probably still pretty nostalgic about the glory days of Fireball.

Unfortunately, 3.5 mechanics really shat on the Fireball. The damage cap is sad, and the presence of SR and Resistance also makes for Fireball's woes.

I've read about it and looked through the old books. Straight dice HP with no HP benefit from Constitution means that doing 3.5 damage X caster level means that you are probably screwed.

I will never be unimpressed by the level of kindness, promptness, and understanding this forum has. Thank you to everyone for posting and indulging my curiosity. Please continue; y'all are great.

Best of luck
-Eddie

[Talic]

By level 12, it's possible to be swinging +20 to saves, rather easily. Very few casters can make DC's high enough to make AoE Evocation a viable threat.

[sofawall]

It's the ranged touch ones one must be careful of.

EDIT: As far as blasting goes, I mean.

[Talic]

And Conjuration does that better.

[J.Gellert]

He likes to play "Tim the Enchanter."

The reason I am simply not asking him, as I'm sure many of you are wondering, is because he is a far older player than I am. He is old enough to be my father and he has been playing for a far longer time than I have. Asking him would be rude on two areas; it would be insulting to him as he sees the younger/less experienced player doubting him and it would be bothersome to him if a 'kid' doubted him.

Hire ninjas to steal his character sheet.

If you think he's cheating, just tell your DM, but groups are torn over this kind of thing so be careful...

Also, what Talic said

[Zergrusheddie]

By level 12, it's possible to be swinging +20 to saves, rather easily. Very few casters can make DC's high enough to make AoE Evocation a viable threat.

I know that Evocation is not as powerful as pulling a Batman because a missed save with a Fireball does damage but a missed save with a Glitterdust means that Fighter types are in deep trouble. However, I never thought they were not viable, just that they don't do as well as other specialists because where a specialist can cast Confusion and make things so much easier for the party because the enemies are beating the hell of of each other, an Evoker would have to cast a couple Fireballs. Don't they reach the same conclusion though?

Best of luck
-Eddie

[ericgrau]

Fireball kills multiple opponents and still has an effect on those that make their save, which easily trumps the SoDs that hit one target when you're fighting a group. It also has a larger AoE than the SoS's and kills vs. merely weakening (most AoE SoS's still allow the baddy to act in some way if you know the rules). And it's just as easy to cheese out as other builds as the OP showed. Since the average CR 10 monster has 135 HP, he's now taking down 1/4-1/2 of multiple (sometimes every) enemy's HP each round. Mooks go down in the first round. Combats end in 2-3 rounds, perhaps faster thanks to the caster's allies. And I've been in a game where this was commonplace, with a less cheesed out evoker no less. Thanks to energy substitution he's doing much more damage than the orb spells, which are only singlet target btw, without worrying about resistances. So why do people fight back and/or outright ignore the nice results the moment someone starts applying cheese to evocation vs the cheese they use for other builds?

[Farlion]

With level 10 a maximized empowered fireball will deal between 66 and 90 damage. (correct explanation given above by Glimbur)

I think your friend just looked at his own reflex save and thought:" Wow, I'd never make that save for my fireball"

I wouldn't worry about him doing "too much" damage. His numbers seem fairly normal for that level.

Cheers,
Farlion

[Paul H]

Hi

I've been into 3.5 since it came out, and even I make mistakes! I'm 'just' 52, so don't worry about asking 'elders' for help or their opinion.

Are you sure he said all the time, or just what his max was. Often people get attention by saying what their max damage is.

Don't forget he can only use one Rod per round, so Rods of Max & Empower can't both be used at same time.

Just in case - an Int 24 Warmage can do 10D6+7 fire damage with Fireball. Rod of Lssr Empower bumps that to 63 pts on average, max 100.
(Though Cloudkill would be better for that level of Warmage)

Cheers
Paul H

[Indon]

In addition to the ways noted earlier to increase save DC, Heighten Spell would allow your friend to increase the base DC for the save to a spell of whatever level he casts at - so a 6'th spell level fireball enhanced with metamagic gains +3 to its' save DC.