Divine Power for non-clerics

[Brock Samson]

I was just curious in what ways you can achieve a similar outcome. There's always UMDing a wand of Divine Power (what kind of check would that be btw?). For Wizards there's Tensor's Transformation (though much crappier as you can't cast spells). Is there anything similar for Druids or other casters? I'd love to be able to use this spell/similar spell for my 22nd level Druid/Wizard/Mystic Theurge/Arcane Heirophant, but don't want to lose the ability to cast spells (with Transformation), or lose the 300 XP it'd cost to Limited Wish myself up a Divine Power. Ideas/suggestions? (and I can definitely hit with my persisted Wraithstrike and am usually Shapeshifted into a Solar, sometimes Titan).

[AslanCross]

Activating a wand is always a flat DC 20. However, a 4th level wand (CL 7th) costs 21,000 GP.

[Emy]

Couldn't you just use your Solar spellcasting to do it?

Also, depending on how much you need that BAB (you probably don't, really), couldn't you just persist Bite of the Werebear for a much bigger enhancement bonus to Str?

[Brock Samson]

Well I'm not actually a Solar, so I'm pretty certain I don't actually get their spellcasting.

I could get along with my current BAB, but since most of the time I'll be charge/pounce/Power Attacking with a two-handed weapon, hey, why not?

And I plan on casting Bite of the Werebear when needed, but there's no way I can persist a spell that high. I don't have anything to cut down on my cost for metamagicing.

[elliott20]

i personally always wondered why Paladins don't get that spell.

[AslanCross]

I completely glossed over your level. I'm sure a 4th-level wand wouldn't be a problem for you. That said, you're a 22nd level caster. Is a 4th-level buff that important? o_o

[Eldariel]

Shapechange gains you spellcasting by RAW. Of course, that's quite cheesy, but if you already have Persisted Wraithstrike, it might fly. The other option is simple Arcane Disciple [Complete Divine]: AnythingWithDivinePower (War in Core) and Wisdom of at least 14 (a given since you also have Druid casting), but that costs you a feat.

i personally always wondered why Paladins don't get that spell.

They already have full BAB, so it'd be of little use to them, I'd imagine.

[Brock Samson]

How exactly is getting Spellcasting or a Spell-like ability RAW?

And I think this little 4th level spell, which will up my BAB by 8, giving me an extra attack along with improving the PA of all my attacks, will be pretty darn helpful (for a relatively minor cost).

I will definitely have to check out this Arcane Disciple though and see what that would provide.

[elliott20]

They already have full BAB, so it'd be of little use to them, I'd imagine.

Well, sure, but it still gives you a +6 to strength and temp hit points. So it is still useful in a way, just not as good if a cleric gets it.

Then again, I also feel that paladins should be able to use Righteous Might too, so maybe I'm just weird like that.

[Eldariel]

How exactly is getting Spellcasting or a Spell-like ability RAW?

Not spell-likes; that'd be against the specific wording of the spell. However, that's basically the only ability you don't get. Spellcasting is a basic Su ability IIRC (or was it Ex?) and should under Shapechange wording be granted.

And yeah, Arcane Disciple is probably your best bet. It basically grants you the spells of a domain your god grants castables as once/level/day (much like they were Domain-spells). Now, if you can Persist it (e.g. if you have Improved Spell Capacity), that one casting will last you whole day.

Well, sure, but it still gives you a +6 to strength and temp hit points. So it is still useful in a way, just not as good if a cleric gets it.

Then again, I also feel that paladins should be able to use Righteous Might too, so maybe I'm just weird like that.

Oh, I'm not saying they shouldn't get it, I'm just citing what I think to be the likely reason they don't. I frankly agree; there are tons of solid buff spells in the Cleric list, it makes little reason the more martially minded Paladin doesn't gain access to them. I guess they feared Paladin would be broken with the buffs and full BAB though. Or that he couldn't ride his mount while Large from Righteous Might. *shrug*

[Keld Denar]

If you are stuck with Core domains, War does grant Divine Power. If you can squeak into the Spell Compendium (or Complete Divine), the Competition domain gives you Divine Power AND Righteous Might, among other things. This is good. Might be kinda tough swingin the fluff reqs for whatever your god is supporting physical contests of prowass, but thats not for us to worry about! :P

[Medic]

i personally always wondered why Paladins don't get that spell.

I think its because the only effect it would have is giving the paladin a +4 to strength. They already have fighters BAB.

[quick_comment]

I think its because the only effect it would have is giving the paladin a +4 to strength. They already have fighters BAB.

Not multiclass paladins.

[Gnaeus]

Not spell-likes; that'd be against the specific wording of the spell. However, that's basically the only ability you don't get. Spellcasting is a basic Su ability IIRC (or was it Ex?) and should under Shapechange wording be granted.

I don't think that is RAW exactly, closer to rules as interpreted. I would argue that spellcasting is not an Su or Ex ability, but a common skill learned by solars over their centuries of existance.

But regardless, unless the rest of your party is at the top tier of optimization, and I mean broken to near theoretical levels, don't use this trick. Shapechange is one of the most powerful spells in the game, and arguing that it gives you free level 20 casting from a different class is really over the top. It is very rare that DMs will allow this in any but the cheesiest games, it makes you look bad to ask, and it might get Shapechange banned outright. Really, a druid/Wizard/Hierophant/MT at epic levels should be able to dominate most games without this kind of abuse.

[Optimystik]

Not multiclass paladins.

Paladins aren't supposed to multiclass; their abilities are designed around the assumption that you're staying pure.

Anyway, those martial spells are probably also designed for warpriests.

[Sinfire Titan]

Paladins aren't supposed to multiclass; their abilities are designed around the assumption that you're staying pure.

Anyway, those martial spells are probably also designed for warpriests.

Keyword there hoss. Just because fluff says you should take the class to 20 doesn't mean it's a good class to take to 20. If anything, the class trails off after 4 or 5.

[quick_comment]

Paladins aren't supposed to multiclass; their abilities are designed around the assumption that you're staying pure.

Anyway, those martial spells are probably also designed for warpriests.

There are a whole bunch of classes that allow paladins to freely multiclass with them, and a whole bunch of feats that do the same.

[Flickerdart]

Keyword there hoss. Just because fluff says you should take the class to 20 doesn't mean it's a good class to take to 20. If anything, the class trails off after 4 or 5.

Then you don't get the spell anyways, 4th level Paladin spells come in way later.

And giving it to them as early as that would be insane.

[quick_comment]

Speaking of paladins, does using battle blessing + sword of the arcane order let you quicken your wizard spells as well?

[Vortling]

Speaking of paladins, does using battle blessing + sword of the arcane order let you quicken your wizard spells as well?

Take a look http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...le_Blessing,CC I would say no as the feat specifies only paladin spells.

[Adumbration]

Interestingly, there's a relic in Complete Divine that has a chance to produce a consumable that replicates Divine Power. I can't remember the name, but it must've been Ehlonna's or someone like that. It also has a bunch of other useful effects.

[Renegade Paladin]

Barbarians can get it by going into Runescarred Berserker (Unapproachable East, FR-specific book), but it's not horribly useful for them.

[Sinfire Titan]

Interestingly, there's a relic in Complete Divine that has a chance to produce a consumable that replicates Divine Power. I can't remember the name, but it must've been Ehlonna's or someone like that. It also has a bunch of other useful effects.

The horn thing that makes food? Reprinted in the MIC.

[Emy]

Not spell-likes; that'd be against the specific wording of the spell. However, that's basically the only ability you don't get. Spellcasting is a basic Su ability IIRC (or was it Ex?) and should under Shapechange wording be granted.

Well, there's an imperfect argument for it being (Ex) (the one monster with racial spellcasting in mm5 has it marked as such), but even if it's not (Ex), it must be one of these four types: Supernatural, Spell-like, Extraordinary, or natural. It's certainly not Su or Spell-like, so if it's not extraordinary it's a natural ability.

So one way or another, it grants spellcasting.

(Which is very silly, of course... but hey, it gets divine power)

Keyword there hoss. Just because fluff says you should take the class to 20 doesn't mean it's a good class to take to 20. If anything, the class trails off after 4 or 5.

Well, 2 for Divine Grace, 4 for spells and turn undead, 5 for the special mount.

[Chronos]

Or that he couldn't ride his mount while Large from Righteous Might. *shrug*

Paladins can share spells with their mounts, though. So the paladin and mount both get bigger, and there's no problem. Righteous Might should be perfectly reasonable as a 4th-level paladin spell, or even 3rd.

And while there are some PrCs that allow you to multiclass back to paladin, most of them have full BAB, too.

[Wings of Peace]

There's always Rainbow Servant from Complete Divine. At 10th level you can learn divine spells and add them to your list. Debatable cheese with casters like Warmage who by default know and can cast every spell on their list spontaneously.

[ErrantX]

Arcane Disciple all the way. Take War or Competition (I prefer War myself). Go nuts.

As far as shapechange goes, I'd say that if you do it, go by this:

You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities.

If you want the spellcasting of the creature, i.e. a Solar or a Dragon, then you give up all of your spellcasting to use theirs. Could be beneficial in some circumstances, not so much in others. Otherwise, no free spells for you, but you get any ability they have with an (Su) or an (Ex) after the name.

-X

[Sir Giacomo]

Not spell-likes; that'd be against the specific wording of the spell. However, that's basically the only ability you don't get. Spellcasting is a basic Su ability IIRC (or was it Ex?) and should under Shapechange wording be granted.

This seems to come up once in a while. Spellcasting is none of the three special ability categories (check out PHB p. 142, p.180). As such, they are not granted by shapechange.

- Giacomo

[Brock Samson]

Ah, I never realized Righteous Might enlarged you regardless of creature type. That's extremely nice. Not to mention a SIZE bonus to strength and con, yay stacking.

[olentu]

This seems to come up once in a while. Spellcasting is none of the three special ability categories (check out PHB p. 142, p.180). As such, they are not granted by shapechange.

- Giacomo

Well assuming that I am remembering correctly part of this is correct. It is true that spellcasting for the most part is not Ex, Sp, or Su. However the rules compendium introduced a new type of special abilities called natural abilities. The rules compendium also says it is designed take precedence over preexisting rules. Natural abilities are abilities that are those abilities not designated as one of the other categories or possibly an ability designated as a natural ability. Now disregarding the example given as it might complicate things a monster such as a Planetar has spells listed as a special attack and as the section on spells does not seem to list them as Ex, Sp, or Su they are then by the rules compendium a natural ability.

Now the polymorph subschool comes into play. This is because preexisting spells based on alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the subschool but the spells text can override that of the subschool. Now then the pertinent part of the the polymorph subschool is that unless otherwise noted the target gains all the statistics and special abilities on the assumed form in exchange for its original abilities with some exceptions. Now then if I am remembering correctly alter self does not say that the target does not get natural abilities of the new form and it allows the target to retain spellcasting. Similarly I believe that polymorph also does not restrict the gaining of natural abilities or remove spellcasting. Now as shapechange is based on polymorph which is based on alter self and I believe that none of these spells restrict the gaining of natural abilities the spells do not override the polymorph subschool in regards to gaining natural abilities but they do mix up the gaining of other special abilities.

So casting shapechange gives the natural abilities of the form that is changed into and as spellcasting is a natural ability for most monsters shapechange grants the spellcasting of the form changed into.