Swordsage with Energy Substitution

[Magugag]

So, in my campaign a friend of mine chose to play a Swordsage focusing on the Desert Wind path, and came up against a red dragon. Though dipping into other paths meant that he wasn't useless by any means, he was apparently a little disappointed that he couldn't use his favorite maneuvers to damage the big beastie, and came to me requesting the ability to take the Energy Substitution feat for his Desert Wind maneuvers.

Normally, I'd tell him tough. After all, having to switch your tactics is the reason for varied foes. However, if he's willing to spend the feats to do such a thing (if he wanted to be totally covered, he'd likely take more than one) I'm a little less inclined to tell him to suck it up. That could be just because I don't see a way for this to unbalance the game, though. Not to mention I find the idea of a Swordsage blasting lightning or arctic wind to be downright cool.

But since I usually find great answers to my questions on this forum, I thought for once I'd sign up and just ask. Would it be reasonable to allow a Swordsage to take the Energy Substitution feat for his Desert Wind maneuvers?

[AstralFire]

I wouldn't allow it from a flavor standpoint, because that's a really bland and boring solution. (Power standpoint? Totally okay, but I really hate how fire is underplayed.)

I would instead make a feat that allows him change the element corresponding to a stance he's in. If he's in a Diamond Mind stance, he can drop the damage die by 1 size and make it sonic damage. Not much carries both fire and sonic.

[Mr.Moron]

I'd say yes. Heck, I'd probably take it a bit further, I'd probably say he could meditate at the start of each day an choose an energy type each time, excluding sonic & force. Changing energy damage is hardly the kind of thing that threatens a game-shatter.

[sonofzeal]

I'd say yes. Heck, I'd probably take it a bit further, I'd probably say he could meditate at the start of each day an choose an energy type each time, excluding sonic & force. Changing energy damage is hardly the kind of thing that threatens a game-shatter.

I like this. Letting him choose the energy type at-will is powerful, but choosing it for the whole day is better. A feat for it is good though, either way Anyway, Swordsages should have maneuvers coming out the wazzoo, and he should be looking at around three schools he's strong in. Other people get tied down with particular energy types, so why not him?

[mistformsquirrl]

I agree with Mr. Moron.

It's not likely to be unbalancing, and imo could create some very cool effects - like flash-freezing a group of enemies.

Hrmm...

This actually brings up another interesting thought:

Meta-Martial feats. They'd have to have a different type of restriction as opposed to Metamagic; but I think such a thing could be a very interesting addition... it'd have to be done right though.

(I'm imagining something like "Explosive Maneuver" which, when applied to a maneuver with an AOE, could cause enemies to be flung away from you; for example. Similar to the effects of Explosive Spell.)

Course that's a huge can of worms.

[Yuki Akuma]

Shadow Hand has a few maneuvers that deal cold damage...

It's rare to find something that's resistant to both fire and cold.

[Worira]

One Shadow Hand maneuver does 1d6 cold damage.

[Magugag]

I wouldn't allow it from a flavor standpoint, because that's a really bland and boring solution. (Power standpoint? Totally okay, but I really hate how fire is underplayed.)

I would instead make a feat that allows him change the element corresponding to a stance he's in. If he's in a Diamond Mind stance, he can drop the damage die by 1 size and make it sonic damage. Not much carries both fire and sonic.

Fire is underplayed? I've never heard that one before. Your idea is really awesome in that it fits very well with the overall style of the maneuver using classes, and in that stances can be changed at any time. I'll definitely consider it.

I'd say yes. Heck, I'd probably take it a bit further, I'd probably say he could meditate at the start of each day an choose an energy type each time, excluding sonic & force. Changing energy damage is hardly the kind of thing that threatens a game-shatter.

This is also one I really like, though I'm sure it's a little more limiting than my player had in mind, since he'd be stuck in one element all day. Great input too, since the general consensus seems to be that energy substitution is really no big deal at all.

[Mr.Moron]

This is also one I really like, though I'm sure it's a little more limiting than my player had in mind, since he'd be stuck in one element all day.

Well, it's worth keeping in mind he is already stuck in one elemental all day. Just not one of his choosing.

That said, you could probably also make it stronger without breaking the game.Honestly, you could even take it to the point where he change elements so readily he can always target a weakness or bypass an immunity on a given an enemy. It'll be strong, but not break the game.

However at that point, you'd beyond the scope of a single feat. If he wanted something like that you could add a feat tree, where the second feat allows him to change it with a full-round action or something similar. Two feats is a pretty big cost in character power so it's hardly out of line with that cost.

You could also enter the realm of a custom prestige class, perhaps something that ties into the whole "Wind" theme. Where they can gain class abilties that get them access to winds other than the desert such as "Arctic Wind" for cold maneuvers. However, that's going beyond the scope of what was originally being looked for.

[Magugag]

Well, it's worth keeping in mind he is already stuck in one elemental all day. Just not one of his choosing.

That said, you could probably also make it stronger without breaking the game.Honestly, you could even take it to the point where he change elements so readily he can always target a weakness or bypass an immunity on a given an enemy. It'll be strong, but not break the game.

However at that point, you'd beyond the scope of a single feat. If he wanted something like that you could add a feat tree, where the second feat allows him to change it with a full-round action or something similar. Two feats is a pretty big cost in character power so it's OKAY for it do awesome.

You could also enter the realm of a custom prestige class, perhaps something that ties into the whole "Wind" theme. Where they can gain class abilties that get them access to winds other than the desert such as "Arctic Wind" for cold maneuvers. However, that's going beyond the scope of what was originally being looked for.

Maybe beyond the scope of what I was looking for, but I'm more than willing to put in a little elbow grease for something that sounds that darn cool. I'll be heavily considering giving him a prestige class, and seeing what he thinks about it. If not, I think a feat tree or something like that would also be within a good range of power to investment trade-off. Like you said, readily being able to adapt to any elemental situation is beyond the scope of a single feat.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Energy Sub is balanced for casters and Psions at +0, I see no reason it would be an issue for Initiators. Take a feat, get one more energy usable, IMHO, would be balanced.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't see why he needs it, unless he crippled himself by going overboard on Desert Wind.

Swordsage is one of the nastiest customers in a fight. Against a Red Dragon, don't bother with Desert Wind, go with Diamond Mind and start making TOUCH ATTACKS with bonus damage based on Concentration check. A Dragon's touch AC is like 7... try and MISS that.

Seriously, Swordsage has the MOST number of Maneuvers Known of any Initiator class. If he knows he is going to end up against a Red Dragon, then he shouldn't prepare his fire-damage-dealing Desert Wind maneuvers, he should be preparing his Tiger Fang and Diamond Mind Maneuvers, with some Setting Sun thrown in (Baffling Defense FTW and Manticore Parry so the Dragon hits himself). This makes himself more dangerous to the Dragon than any other meat-shield out there.

[Salt_Crow]

Seriously, Swordsage has the MOST number of Maneuvers Known of any Initiator class. If he knows he is going to end up against a Red Dragon, then he shouldn't prepare his fire-damage-dealing Desert Wind maneuvers, he should be preparing his Tiger Fang and Diamond Mind Maneuvers, with some Setting Sun thrown in (Baffling Defense FTW and Manticore Parry so the Dragon hits himself). This makes himself more dangerous to the Dragon than any other meat-shield out there.

And not to mention that every swordsage would want Adaptive Style feat to change (+recover) readied manoeuvres on the run!

[Thrawn183]

I would just have him decide which type of damage he was using when he readied his manuevers. It would really suck to find out part way through the day that you're fighting a dragon that is immune to electricity but that's all you can use for the entire day.

I mean, part of what makes ToB fun is that you can change things up relatively quickly so that you don't end up in a situation where you're using fire damage against a red dragon.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I would just have him decide which type of damage he was using when he readied his manuevers. It would really suck to find out part way through the day that you're fighting a dragon that is immune to electricity but that's all you can use for the entire day.

I mean, part of what makes ToB fun is that you can change things up relatively quickly so that you don't end up in a situation where you're using fire damage against a red dragon.

I'm still wondering why he's so dependent on energy-based damage for damage output... my heaviest damage-dealer Swordsage almost never uses Desert Wind, preferring instead Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, Tiger Fang, and Setting Sun, with a splash of Stone Dragon.

[RTGoodman]

How about this - instead of changing your energy type from Desert Wind's fire with a feat, how about a feat that lets you get around fire resistance or immunity.

Desert Flames [General]
Prerequisites: Access to 3rd level martial maneuvers; knowledge
of 5 Desert Wind maneuvers
Benefit: When you deal fire damage with a Desert Wind maneuver
or stance, you ignore fire resistance equal to your initiator level.


As a higher-level Improved Desert Flames feat (maybe that requires 7th or 8th level manuevers and at least 10 Desert Wind maneuvers), you can ignore any fire resistance or immunity with Desert Wind fire abilities.

[Kaiyanwang]

Coming in my Mind:

Desert Howl [General]
Prerequisite: Swordsage level 3, 3 or more DW maneuvers
Effect: Whenever you recover a DW maneuver dealing fire damage, you can decide that the maneuver is a Desert Howl. Desert Howl maneuvers deal sonic damage instead of fire damage, but the damage dice is decreased by one.
If the damage is constant, drop it to 75%

Desert Tempest [General]
Prerequisite: Swordsage level 3, 3 or more DW maneuvers
Effect: Whenever you recover a DW maneuver dealing fire damage, you can decide that the maneuver is a Desert Tempest. Desert Tempest maneuvers deal electricity damage instead of fire damage.

Just an idea. I worte these 2 energies because fit well with the martial arts like fire (I can see a powerful shout dealing 75 sonic damage AOE, but is more difficult see a swordsage spreading acid, barring spellcasting variant).

[Person_Man]

Wait, if he's a Swordsage, he has a ton of manuevers. Most manuevers deal physical damage, and nothing is immune to physical damage (although DR and Miss Chance are often problems). Even if 80% of his manuevers are Desert Wind, then he can still have several non-Desert Wind manuevers as a backup and still be useful in combat. [/rant]

Anywho, I'd let him take Energy Substitution for his manuevers. Fire/Cold could be fluff-tastic if roleplayed well. Maybe being impotent against the Red Dragon caused a schizophrenic break, and now he has two personalities, like a red oni blue oni thing?

[quick_comment]

I would give him a new stance

Sol Invictus
Prerequisites: At least 1 level six desert wind maneuver
Effect: While in the stance your desert wind maneuvers are enhanced, allowing you to make them hotter than normal fires. When you are in this stance, any fire damage your maneuvers do ignore fire resistance and immunity. Creatures with the fire subtype take half damage from your maneuvers. Creatures with the cold subtype take double.


As a feat, I would say
Desert Fire School Adept
Prereqs: A level 6 or higher desert wind stance
Effect: You have been inducted to the secret, inner school of the Desert Wind style. You know how to make your maneuver flames so hot that they burn even those resistant to fire. Any fire damage your maneuvers do ignore fire resistance and immunity. Creatures with the fire subtype take half damage from your maneuvers. Creatures with the cold subtype take double.


Aka, searing spell metamagic for desert wind maneuvers. Thematically, its appropriate, because searing spell is from sandstorm, so it is desert based.