Homebrewed specialist wizard variant

[Jallorn]

So I've come up with the idea, and I doubt I'm the first, of taking multiple specialisms at first level. I'm going to try and create an evoker-necromancer, but I can't decide on the last two I should give up. So far, I've given up illusion and abjuration. that leaves enchanting, conjuring, and transmuting.

[Doc Roc]

This is going to be hard, but potentially very over-powered within its target problem domain. You might consider just using focused specialist instead, however, as you're going to end up dropping too many schools otherwise. There just are not four schools I can drop without flinching.

Alternatively, you might consider a build using one of the more specialized casting classes or even just the ever-excellent sorcerer class. And yes, sorcerer is very powerful.

[Jallorn]

I know sorcerer is powerful, but I'm going for a theme. He commands vast armies of undead, and can kill people with incredible ease. I'm also using some of the necromancer variant stuff. The undead minion and enhanced undead specifically.

[Doc Roc]

Enchanting is an easy drop. But you're pretty borked for your last pick. Also, abjuration means that counterspelling and dispelling will be very difficult if not effectively impossible. If you are the party's primary arcanist, you need to reconsider what you are doing. If not, this could be a viable character. The last school is gonna be a really hard choice.

[Xefas]

I would go with Enchanting and Conjuration, even though the loss of Conjuration is a major bummer. Transmutation is just too big and amazingly powerful to give up.

That's what *I* would do. You, on the other hand, might still want Conjuration for the Summon Undead line of spells (from the Spell Compendium and possibly Heroes of Horror).

S'toss up between thematically summoning undead and nonthematically polymorphing into a giant monster and slaughtering everything with ease.

[Keld Denar]

[removed for great justice]

[Doc Roc]

Really, as long as you don't ban Necromancy, you can always be a "necromancer".

PS, Conjouration killed Evocation about 1.5 editions ago, looted its body, and dumped it on the side of the road for the buzzards to devour. I suggest you be a Conjourer, label yourself a necromancer, and call it a game. If you'd like, we can even help you pick out spells that help you fulfill your theme.

Not entirely true, but pretty close in some respects. The real culprit, from my perspective, was Illusion with the Shadow series and Shades. The issue in conjuration, among other things, is that Orbs are just so darn good in every single respect and conjuration has the vast majority of the battlefield control. There are some incredible spells, absolutely solid gold, in evocation. But not as many as there should be.

[Jallorn]

Wizards are actually terrible undead controllers. They just don't get any support for it until level 9 when they get 5th level spells. Thats just halfway through life, or about 3/4 of the way through life before its silly to continue.

Also, please don't confuse build and theme. Build includes the mechanics and stats that compose your character. Your character has no idea what these are. Your theme involves how you roleplay your character. You can be a "necromancer" without being a Necromancer. You can be a Samurai without having any levels in the class.

Really, as long as you don't ban Necromancy, you can always be a "necromancer".

PS, Conjouration killed Evocation about 1.5 editions ago, looted its body, and dumped it on the side of the road for the buzzards to devour. I suggest you be a Conjourer, label yourself a necromancer, and call it a game. If you'd like, we can even help you pick out spells that help you fulfill your theme.

If you want to go with the whole "commands undead and kills people quickly" theme, I'd suggest either a Dread Necromancer from Hero's of Horror, or an evil aligned cleric. Both do it better.

This is what I don't want. I'm not trying to munchkinize him. I"m not going to change any of the descisions I've already made, don't try and make me. I just want advice on which of the three remaining schools of magic I should remove. Xefas has leaned me towards dropping enchanting and transmutation. Seems to work best with my theme.

[Keld Denar]

Please don't call me a munchkin again, implicitly or explicitly. I retract my advice. Good day.

[Doc Roc]

This is what I don't want. I'm not trying to munchkinize him. I"m not going to change any of the descisions I've already made, don't try and make me. I just want advice on which of the three remaining schools of magic I should remove. Xefas has leaned me towards dropping enchanting and transmutation. Seems to work best with my theme.

Right, this is all fine, but what about your party? You have an obligation to them to remain useful through-out the course of the game. I'm not trying to change you, or "munchkinize" you. I'm making sure that your party won't be looking for things you don't and cannot have. Demonizing the people helping you is a categorically bad plan if you want more help. That said, my drop picks would I suppose be enchantment and transmutation, if push came to shove and theme was the deciding factor.

[Jallorn]

Right, this is all fine, but what about your party? You have an obligation to them to remain useful through-out the course of the game. I'm not trying to change you, or "munchkinize" you. I'm making sure that your party won't be looking for things you don't and cannot have. Demonizing the people helping you is a categorically bad plan if you want more help. That said, my drop picks would I suppose be enchantment and transmutation, if push came to shove and theme was the deciding factor.

Not building for a party, just making the character.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

I agree with Keld Denar's trail of thought, but if you are set on this:

Enchantment can easily go. It doesn't do that much besides controlling others and you obviously chose the less subtle way of handling things :).

Transmutation and conjuration both have big pluses and are both schools that are ideally not banned. If you can live without teleportation spells, I'd keep transmutation: It offers a lot of buffs for your minions. An other strong point of conjuration, calling/summoning, is more or less covered by your permanent horde of pets so I think in the end dumping conjuration hurts, but not as hard as dumping transmutation (unless you fancy summoning additional undead).

[Doc Roc]

But... but... ORBS! :)

[Jallorn]

For any who are interested in how the character turned out, here's the sheet. He's not quite done though.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetvie...sheetid=133978

[Brom]

...You're a level 30 character without epic spells, and you only have an Intelligence of 28?

DC 34 on your level 9 spells. Since you don't have epic spellcasting, nothing better than level 9.

I don't have any epic level monsters convienantly on hand. Can someone tell me how many CR 21-30 monsters could make a DC 34 save on a 10? 'Cause I don't play at Epic, but it seems like most of them.

And you have a bunch of AC boosting and HP items, that get your health to a little over 300 and ac to little over 30. Aren't you better off saving cash and using a combination of Fly, Mirror Image, the armor spells, Stoneskin, Spell Turning, Mind Blank, and the scores of other self-defense spells?

Seems wonky. But if you want to go for flavor over function, fine.

Either way? Apologize for calling that dude a munchkin. That was rude. I'm not sure that you understand why it was rude, but it doesn't really matter at this point.

[Jallorn]

...You're a level 30 character without epic spells, and you only have an Intelligence of 28?

I had other requirements, specificaly Charisma for my leadership. And yes I know a sorcerer would benefit from that more, but it's flavor.

DC 34 on your level 9 spells. Since you don't have epic spellcasting, nothing better than level 9.

I said I wasn't done. I haven't made his epic spells yet, that's later.

I don't have any epic level monsters convienantly on hand. Can someone tell me how many CR 21-30 monsters could make a DC 34 save on a 10? 'Cause I don't play at Epic, but it seems like most of them.

I'm not adventuring against monsters

And you have a bunch of AC boosting and HP items, that get your health to a little over 300 and ac to little over 30. Aren't you better off saving cash and using a combination of Fly, Mirror Image, the armor spells, Stoneskin, Spell Turning, Mind Blank, and the scores of other self-defense spells?

Don't have access to them, banned them.

Seems wonky. But if you want to go for flavor over function, fine.

Either way? Apologize for calling that dude a munchkin. That was rude. I'm not sure that you understand why it was rude, but it doesn't really matter at this point.

I didn't call him a munchkin. It's not necesarily an insult, but I simply said I wasn't looking to munchkinize my character. Exagerating for emphasis. What I meant was that beyond my initial question, I don't really care about power all that much. I wanted to see how powerful I could make him under my requirements.

Answers in bold

[Ehra]

Getting that upset over being called a munchkin is ridiculous. Especially when someone asks a specific question for a theme they want to work on and then your idea of "helping" them is to tell them they would be better off not even trying their idea out.

There's no reason for anyone to apologize for anything.

[Jallorn]

Getting that upset over being called a munchkin is ridiculous. Especially when someone asks a specific question for a theme they want to work on and then your idea of "helping" them is to tell them they would be better off not even trying their idea out.

There's no reason for anyone to apologize for anything.

Thank you.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Getting that upset over being called a munchkin is ridiculous. Especially when someone asks a specific question for a theme they want to work on and then your idea of "helping" them is to tell them they would be better off not even trying their idea out.

There's no reason for anyone to apologize for anything.

A munchkin is synonomys for a cheater. An "Extreme Optomizer" may have been a better term

And he specifically said that he didnt want you to imply that he was a munchkin.


Just my 2 cp on the subject.

[Keld Denar]

To quote someone else who posts here...

You can ask for advice, or you can insult people. You can't do both at once.

I was trying to make sure you weren't bound by a common misconsception around here, that character = sheet. Maybe your character is the most flavorful, well role-played character in the world, or maybe you choose to call him "Yellow Dye #4" (I've seen this done...). We can't comment on that, because we have never seen you play. Your theme and your flavor are your own. We CAN guage a build though. The idea of "double specialization" is mechanically terrible on the grounds that you are giving up 4 schools of magic for 2 extra spells, when, using the Focused Specialist variant in Complete Mage, you can give up only 3 schools of magic to gain 2 extra spell slots. Even if FS didn't exist, it would still be a bad idea in that you lose a lot of the versitility that makes wizards the most powerful class in the game, as you yourself noted by having to buy a bunch of substandard gear because of the lack of standard magical protections.

And yea...advice on the internet is free. You get what you pay for, and often what you didn't. Regardless, calling someone (explicitly), or their ideas (implicitly), munchkin is frowned upon here. Very much so. Now, I just gave you some more advice above, and you have a couple of options. You can ignore me, you can politely thank me and decline my advice, you can accept some or all of my advice, or you can call me a munchkin again. The last option is called flaming.

[Seatbelt]

My two copper pieces. The appellation "muchkin" in my group has been bastardized into "cheap munchky whore." When people saw how well thought out and prepped my abjurant champion dude was, I was a cheap munchky whore.

So even though this is a game and I think getting offended on the interwebs is silly, it's worth considering.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

To be honest (taking a shot in the dark), it seems like the OP is making a villain for PCs to fight, not a PC. That means that this necromancer fellow is likely several levels above some likely-unoptimized adventuring party. If all this is correct, the OP shouldn't un-gimp the necromancer or he'll cause a TPK.

Anyway, if you're already specializing in Evocation and Necromancy, Transmutation makes the most sense to keep. Evocation will give you a good amount of battlefield control, and Shapechanging into some sort of undead horror is just too fun to pass up. Also, Time Stop.

[Doc Roc]

My two copper pieces. The appellation "muchkin" in my group has been bastardized into "cheap munchky whore." When people saw how well thought out and prepped my abjurant champion dude was, I was a cheap munchky whore.

So even though this is a game and I think getting offended on the interwebs is silly, it's worth considering.

This is it, basically. It's not that this is the internet, it's that most people bring that same attitude to the friendly local gaming store. It can make it unfriendly for someone like me.

[Jallorn]

New challenge. What are good feats for the wizard's cohort not changing anything already on this sheet: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetvie...sheetid=130379 One of his feats will be leadership, although with the ruling that it only gives him a cohort and no additional followers.

Also, what are good spells to compliment the wizard's capabilities?

And just so you know, I am considering switching conjuration for transmutation for banned schools as far as my wizard goes.

Additionally, does enhanced undead effect the Skeletal Minion?

[Doc Roc]

I recommend dragon cohort, with the dragon cohort having dragon cohort, with the dragon cohort having dragon cohort...N, Lim N->arbitrarily large