Abjurant Champion - Abjurant Armor

[yilduz]

Does Abjurant Armor really effect anything other than Shield? I can't find any other abjuration spells that give an armor or shield bonus to AC.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, thats dumb.

Book of Exalted Deeds has Luminous Armor and Greater Luminous Armor, which are Abjurations and would work.

Unfortunately, they are [Sanctified] spells and cause Str damage when you cast them...

[J.Gellert]

Homebrew an Abjuration version of Greater Mage Armor. Tell your DM: "If it's balanced in Conjuration, the most overpowered school there is, it's definitely balanced in Abjuration, right?"

But I can't think of any more spells that fit, yeah. Maybe in Spell Compendium, but I don't have it nearby... Highly unlikely anyway, simple "Bonus to AC" spells are boring and thus rare to find outside the PH.

[Salt_Crow]

"Having a previously non-existent extra +5 bonus to AC is balanced!" wouldn't exactly be a convincing statement in my book ;)

Yeah so the best spells would be LA series from BoED. Try to bypass that Str damage by binding Naberius (if AM)/having your cleric to cast Death Ward or Lesser Restoration etc etc.

You could also be a Jorasco halfling w/ mark of healing (ECS stuff I know) to just do it yourself. Hey, if you have a true dragonmark you can take another feat to gain immunity to daze too (Mark of Dauntless, Dragonmarked)! Unrestricted celerity anyone?

[Douglas]

As I recall, the strength damage doesn't happen until the spell ends.

[Eldariel]

Just say "the examples include Mage Armor, it's fair to give it to Abjuration as it's already been accounted for". Besides, Greater Luminous Armor has higher bonuses anyways; it actually has Wis-drain IIRC; Lesser Restoration per day will do.

[Oblivious]

Given that Mage Armor was in the example, I believe it was an oversight on the writer's part.

[Gralamin]

Honestly, there is little reason Mage armor shouldn't be in Abjuration anyway. Most DMs should be fine with transferring it over.

[mistformsquirrl]

Since we're on the topic - quick question:

If I have the ability to cast in Medium Armor (and am wearing Mithral Full plate) - I still get Shield as a bonus to AC right, because it's a Shield bonus? It sounds right in my head, but somehow I'm just not completely sure. >.<

(I ask because my Battle Sorcerer is looking at Abjurant Champion as a PrC in a couple levels)

[quick_comment]

Heck, mage armor SHOULD be in abjuration.

Its made of force; where the hell are you conjuring that from?

[Gralamin]

Since we're on the topic - quick question:

If I have the ability to cast in Medium Armor (and am wearing Mithral Full plate) - I still get Shield as a bonus to AC right, because it's a Shield bonus? It sounds right in my head, but somehow I'm just not completely sure. >.<

(I ask because my Battle Sorcerer is looking at Abjurant Champion as a PrC in a couple levels)

Shield does indeed grant a Shield bonus. So unless your wielding a Shield already, you get the bonus.

[mistformsquirrl]

Whew, thanks <~_~>b just wanted to be sure so I didn't end up getting my special abilities crossed with feats I'd taken, rendering one or the other useless. <@,@>b

[Saph]

Complete Mage has been errata'd; check the WotC website. The Mage Armour example has been removed from the statistics block.

Honestly, Abjurant Champion is more than strong enough already; it's the best gish PrC around. Adding yet another +5 AC on top of the +5 it has already would make it overpowered.

- Saph

[arguskos]

Complete Mage has been errata'd; check the WotC website. The Mage Armour example has been removed from the statistics block.

Honestly, Abjurant Champion is more than strong enough already; it's the best gish PrC around. Adding yet another +5 AC on top of the +5 it has already would make it overpowered.

- Saph

Still, it poses the question of why the quintessential defensive spell isn't in the defensive school of magic. Mage Armor SHOULD be an Abjuration spell, with or without Abj. Champ. in the equation.

[Saph]

Still, it poses the question of why the quintessential defensive spell isn't in the defensive school of magic. Mage Armor SHOULD be an Abjuration spell, with or without Abj. Champ. in the equation.

Oh, I agree, it makes no sense. Force effects are totally inconsistent; given that Shield (Abj), Mage Armour (Conj), and Wall of Force (Evo) all do more or less the same thing on different scales, how on earth can they be in three different schools?

But Abjurant Champion is plenty good enough without the boost. By level 10 or so an Abjurant Champion gish can get his AC to almost-unhittable levels even without an extra +5 on his Greater Mage Armour.

- Saph

[peacenlove]

Should you utilize mysteries in your game, the Steel Shadows mystery is a first level abjuration mystery that grants both an armor and a shield bonus to Armor class.

[arguskos]

Oh, I agree, it makes no sense. Force effects are totally inconsistent; given that Shield (Abj), Mage Armour (Conj), and Wall of Force (Evo) all do more or less the same thing on different scales, how on earth can they be in three different schools?

But Abjurant Champion is plenty good enough without the boost. By level 10 or so an Abjurant Champion gish can get his AC to almost-unhittable levels even without an extra +5 on his Greater Mage Armour.

- Saph

True enough, but this isn't about the Abjurant Champion being really good (though it is). It's just that defensive/force effects are SOOO scatterbrained that it's impossible to tell who is meant to have what anymore. I'm glad I shifted most of the force spells to abjuration and called it a day.

Really, WotC, your design for 3.5 was... "meh", to be nice. I have stronger language, but it's not forum-friendly.

[Eldariel]

True enough, but this isn't about the Abjurant Champion being really good (though it is). It's just that defensive/force effects are SOOO scatterbrained that it's impossible to tell who is meant to have what anymore. I'm glad I shifted most of the force spells to abjuration and called it a day.

Really, WotC, your design for 3.5 was... "meh", to be nice. I have stronger language, but it's not forum-friendly.

Rant regarding school arrangement in 3.5:

Spoiler

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This is really the reason I like the idea of combining Evocation and Abjuration (and uh, tossing those random Conjurations that somehow ended in Conjuration into this mix). Things might actually make sense then. Oh, and fixes up two relatively weak schools into a thing that's right up there.

Now, if there only were some way to combine Necromancy and Enchantment without stretching plausibility... But alas, I think the only way to make that happen is to break up one into other school (Illusion and Enchantment mostly combine just fine) and buff the other one (giving Necromancy all spells that work with positive or negative energy could work, and would be in line with what the school is supposed to do; Conjuration (Healing) what now ).


But honestly, the schools in 3.5 make no sense whatsoever. They work on many different levels; Abjuration hogs spells by their goal while most of the other schools take them by effect, Evocation mostly takes them by being involved with energy while Conjuration takes the ones that involve creating or calling (including creating and calling energy, go figure), Transmutation has everything that involves changing things except when they involve altering magic or changing energy and then mysteriously has the ability to change time and also some random cases where it involves dimension hopping [Blink much?], while Enchantment has stuff that alters peoples' minds unless it gathers information from the said mind in which case it's a Divination and...just ugh. A drunk 3-year old could do it more coherently...

[KillianHawkeye]

Just use the luminous armor spells. The best way to get around the Strength damage is with a Rod of Bodily Restoration (from the MIC) which only costs 3100 gp!

[arguskos]

Rant regarding school arrangement in 3.5:

Spoiler

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This is really the reason I like the idea of combining Evocation and Abjuration (and uh, tossing those random Conjurations that somehow ended in Conjuration into this mix). Things might actually make sense then. Oh, and fixes up two relatively weak schools into a thing that's right up there.

Now, if there only were some way to combine Necromancy and Enchantment without stretching plausibility... But alas, I think the only way to make that happen is to break up one into other school (Illusion and Enchantment mostly combine just fine) and buff the other one (giving Necromancy all spells that work with positive or negative energy could work, and would be in line with what the school is supposed to do; Conjuration (Healing) what now ).


But honestly, the schools in 3.5 make no sense whatsoever. They work on many different levels; Abjuration hogs spells by their goal while most of the other schools take them by effect, Evocation mostly takes them by being involved with energy while Conjuration takes the ones that involve creating or calling (including creating and calling energy, go figure), Transmutation has everything that involves changing things except when they involve altering magic or changing energy and then mysteriously has the ability to change time and also some random cases where it involves dimension hopping [Blink much?], while Enchantment has stuff that alters peoples' minds unless it gathers information from the said mind in which case it's a Divination and...just ugh. A drunk 3-year old could do it more coherently...

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Heh, I hear that, I really do. I tend to group the schools the following way, which makes sense thematically (to me anyways):
Abjuration: defensive spells, forcefields, etc.
Conjuration: dealing with matter (and ONLY matter), makes stuff, removes stuff, but does not deal with the energy types in anyway at all; if it is made of an energy type, it's evocation; if it's made of matter as we traditionally understand it, it's conjuration
Divination: seeing spells, knowledge gathering, penetrating defenses
Enchantment: mind control, things that directly affect the psyche of other beings
Evocation: dealing with energy (and ONLY energy), either creating it or destroying it
Illusion: deals with magical effects that alter the senses without altering the mind itself; enchantment screws with their head, illusion screws with their senses
Necromancy: the magic of life and death; positive/negative energy are necromancy's domain
Transmutation: deals with the alteration of creatures or objects that already exist; is unlike conjuration in that it doesn't MAKE things, it just CHANGES things.

It's not a perfect system, but it works out alright for me. Whadda ya think, Eldariel?

[yilduz]

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Heh, I hear that, I really do. I tend to group the schools the following way, which makes sense thematically (to me anyways):
Abjuration: defensive spells, forcefields, etc.
Conjuration: dealing with matter (and ONLY matter), makes stuff, removes stuff, but does not deal with the energy types in anyway at all; if it is made of an energy type, it's evocation; if it's made of matter as we traditionally understand it, it's conjuration
Divination: seeing spells, knowledge gathering, penetrating defenses
Enchantment: mind control, things that directly affect the psyche of other beings
Evocation: dealing with energy (and ONLY energy), either creating it or destroying it
Illusion: deals with magical effects that alter the senses without altering the mind itself; enchantment screws with their head, illusion screws with their senses
Necromancy: the magic of life and death; positive/negative energy are necromancy's domain
Transmutation: deals with the alteration of creatures or objects that already exist; is unlike conjuration in that it doesn't MAKE things, it just CHANGES things.

It's not a perfect system, but it works out alright for me. Whadda ya think, Eldariel?

In that system, do you classify cure spells as evocation?

[arguskos]

No, necromancy holds the singular exception to evocation's monopoly on energy. As you'll see I said under necromancy: "positive/negative energy is necromancy's domain".

Necromancy, being the magic of life and death makes sense to channel the energies of life and death. Evocation channels the elemental energies (fire, electricity, cold, acid, sonic, force, etc).

As I said, it's not a perfect system, but I think it makes faaar more sense than what we currently have.

[yilduz]

No, necromancy holds the singular exception to evocation's monopoly on energy. As you'll see I said under necromancy: "positive/negative energy is necromancy's domain".

Necromancy, being the magic of life and death makes sense to channel the energies of life and death. Evocation channels the elemental energies (fire, electricity, cold, acid, sonic, force, etc).

As I said, it's not a perfect system, but I think it makes faaar more sense than what we currently have.

Well, that's what is awesome about this game. If you don't like something, change it.

When I was reading your descriptions, I kind of skipped over necromancy. >_>
I always skip over that school for some reason, even though I think a necromancer would be incredibly fun to play from a role playing view.

[arguskos]

Well, that's what is awesome about this game. If you don't like something, change it.

When I was reading your descriptions, I kind of skipped over necromancy. >_>
I always skip over that school for some reason, even though I think a necromancer would be incredibly fun to play from a role playing view.

Dude, I miss stuff all the time. 'salright. In any case, I do like 3.5 because of that reason alone: I can change things easily, and don't really have to worry about the power level consequences, since it can't really get much worse.

[yilduz]

Dude, I miss stuff all the time. 'salright. In any case, I do like 3.5 because of that reason alone: I can change things easily, and don't really have to worry about the power level consequences, since it can't really get much worse.

It can. I've seen it.

[Eldariel]

Spoiler

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Heh, I hear that, I really do. I tend to group the schools the following way, which makes sense thematically (to me anyways):
Abjuration: defensive spells, forcefields, etc.
Conjuration: dealing with matter (and ONLY matter), makes stuff, removes stuff, but does not deal with the energy types in anyway at all; if it is made of an energy type, it's evocation; if it's made of matter as we traditionally understand it, it's conjuration
Divination: seeing spells, knowledge gathering, penetrating defenses
Enchantment: mind control, things that directly affect the psyche of other beings
Evocation: dealing with energy (and ONLY energy), either creating it or destroying it
Illusion: deals with magical effects that alter the senses without altering the mind itself; enchantment screws with their head, illusion screws with their senses
Necromancy: the magic of life and death; positive/negative energy are necromancy's domain
Transmutation: deals with the alteration of creatures or objects that already exist; is unlike conjuration in that it doesn't MAKE things, it just CHANGES things.

It's not a perfect system, but it works out alright for me. Whadda ya think, Eldariel?

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I think you've mostly got it down, but Abjuration is still working off a completely different basis than other schools with "defensive spells" while others are categorized by what the spell deals with; if we want to be consistent, that doesn't work 'cause it leads to stuff like Wall of Stone or Stoneskin being easily rationalized to Abjuration. I think giving Abjuration Force effects entirely makes sense. Sure, that leads to Magic Missile being an Abjuration, but if that's the price one has to pay for consistency, so be it.

The only alternative I see to that is giving Evocation momentary bursts of energy and Abjuration longterm generation of energy (Prismatic effects are just a combination of energy types anyways, so otherwise they should all go to Evocation); that leaves Evocation mostly intact minus Wall of Force and few others, while giving Abjuration everything it's due and leaving offensive stuff out of it. Then just haul Teleportation-effects to Evocation (for balance's sake, and 'cause flavouring teleportation as a burst of energy opening a "wormhole" between the locations and moving the subjects through isn't really out there any more than "altering the matter" or "calling yourself away"; Transmutation and Conjuration respectively).

This should lead to a relatively solid system, and a relatively balanced one at that (although Enchantment would still suck and continues to do so as long as a blanket immunity in Mind Blank exists; hell, at least there should be a relevant amount of Enchantment-based buffs if nothing else). At least it isn't so swiss cheese that you can literally rationalize any spell in any school, and it looks slightly more solid than what that drunk 3-year old could come up with; this should probably already be about on the level of a sober 3-year old's work.

[arguskos]

It can. I've seen it.

Bah, we ignore the epic rules.

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I think you've mostly got it down, but Abjuration is still working off a completely different basis than other schools with "defensive spells" while others are categorized by what the spell deals with; if we want to be consistent, that doesn't work 'cause it leads to stuff like Wall of Stone or Stoneskin being easily rationalized to Abjuration. I think giving Abjuration Force effects entirely makes sense. Sure, that leads to Magic Missile being an Abjuration, but if that's the price one has to pay for consistency, so be it.

The only alternative I see to that is giving Evocation momentary bursts of energy and Abjuration longterm generation of energy (Prismatic effects are just a combination of energy types anyways, so otherwise they should all go to Evocation); that leaves Evocation mostly intact minus Wall of Force and few others, while giving Abjuration everything it's due and leaving offensive stuff out of it. Then just haul Teleportation-effects to Evocation (for balance's sake, and 'cause flavouring teleportation as a burst of energy opening a "wormhole" between the locations and moving the subjects through isn't really out there any more than "altering the matter" or "calling yourself away"; Transmutation and Conjuration respectively).

This should lead to a relatively solid system, and a relatively balanced one at that (although Enchantment would still suck and continues to do so as long as a blanket immunity in Mind Blank exists; hell, at least there should be a relevant amount of Enchantment-based buffs if nothing else). At least it isn't so swiss cheese that you can literally rationalize any spell in any school, and it looks slightly more solid than what that drunk 3-year old could come up with; this should probably already be about on the level of a sober 3-year old's work.

Are you calling me a 3-year old sir? I must take offense!

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Yeah, that's something I have thought about. I can see changing Abj to long-term generation and Evoc to short-term.

Teleportation is something I actually couldn't reconcile with any of the schools, and so I did something radical: moved it to Universal. It doesn't fit most other places, and where it DOES fit, it's tenuous at best. I was thinking about what to do with it, so I moved it to Universal, reasoning "it doesn't fit too well anywhere else, so let's put it there and say that teleportation is something every mage can learn".

[Eldariel]

Y'know what? The OP has been answered and the thread opener is involved in the conversation. These spoilers merely serve to make it harder to read. Screw that.

Are you calling me a 3-year old sir? I must take offense!

You and me both. See, you can't get mad at me when I'm being equalitarian (or close enough...or well nothing like it, but you get the point).

Yeah, that's something I have thought about. I can see changing Abj to long-term generation and Evoc to short-term.

Teleportation is something I actually couldn't reconcile with any of the schools, and so I did something radical: moved it to Universal. It doesn't fit most other places, and where it DOES fit, it's tenuous at best. I was thinking about what to do with it, so I moved it to Universal, reasoning "it doesn't fit too well anywhere else, so let's put it there and say that teleportation is something every mage can learn".

Sorta makes sense. That really forces you to do same with Summoning and Calling too though 'cause they have about as much to do with creation of matter as bursts of energy have to do with probing peoples' minds. I think it's "cleaner" to just cram them into other schools or just make a new school for them (really, Teleportation, Summoning and Calling pretty much all belong to the same school unless we extend Conjuration to cover all meanings of the verb, which would make it mean "creating matter or calling/summoning creatures" which really makes no sense in the grand context of the things but works with the meaning of the word).

But bleh, I think Teleportation in Universal works fine - no sane man would want to prohibit the school that grants Teleportation anyways ever so this gets around that. Provided we give the basic Core evocations the facelift they deserve (like tac on Explosive Spell to Fireball, save vs. Daze to Lightning Bolt and some variety of Slow-effect to Cone of Cold; repeat for their improved iteratives), this should be pretty damn balanced too.

[valadil]

If you have a way of gaining access to cleric spells, Shield of Faith is an abjuration with an AC bonus of some sort, so I think it should work. Might wanna check to make sure it's the right type of bonus though.

[arguskos]

Y'know what? The OP has been answered and the thread opener is involved in the conversation. These spoilers merely serve to make it harder to read. Screw that.

Thank GODS! It was getting aggravating.

You and me both. See, you can't get mad at me when I'm being equalitarian (or close enough...or well nothing like it, but you get the point).

I hearby move that we establish the First National Empire of Three-Year Olds for D&D!

Sorta makes sense. That really forces you to do same with Summoning and Calling too though 'cause they have about as much to do with creation of matter as bursts of energy have to do with probing peoples' minds. I think it's "cleaner" to just cram them into other schools or just make a new school for them (really, Teleportation, Summoning and Calling pretty much all belong to the same school unless we extend Conjuration to cover all meanings of the verb, which would make it mean "creating matter or calling/summoning creatures" which really makes no sense in the grand context of the things but works with the meaning of the word).

But bleh, I think Teleportation in Universal works fine - no sane man would want to prohibit the school that grants Teleportation anyways ever so this gets around that. Provided we give the basic Core evocations the facelift they deserve (like tac on Explosive Spell to Fireball, save vs. Daze to Lightning Bolt and some variety of Slow-effect to Cone of Cold; repeat for their improved iteratives), this should be pretty damn balanced too.

That's the idea. Teleportation is one of those effects every mage SHOULD get anyways, since it's a staple. Also, I've been thinking about tacking special effects onto Blasty McBlasterson spells, but haven't gotten around to it yet. What do you think, explosive effects on incendiaries, daze/stun on electric spells, slows for cold spells, blinding for acid spells, and... something for sonic?

That leaves spells like Scorching Ray out in the cold though, since adding explosive effects to a ray doesn't make much sense. And what do sonic and force spells get, if anything?