When is sundering kosher for a DM? [3.5]

[Zaq]

Okay, so, we all know why sundering is suboptimal for players. (Doesn't work against a lot of foes, gets geometrically if not exponentially harder as weapons become more and more magical, destroys your own loot, and so on.) That's not really a question here.

However, there are two sides to the game. What's good (or bad) for players might not be the same for the GM.

So, I ask you, Playgrounders, when (if ever) is it okay for a GM to employ sunder-heavy techniques against the players?

On the one hand, it makes a lot of sense thematically. If you have a hulking brute monster with passable intelligence (perhaps a minotaur?), it's going to realize that breaking his opponents' weapons is a good thing, making them a lot less dangerous (at least the melee ones). Particularly when the monsters get an advantage (size, strength, and so on), it just makes good tactical sense from their perspective to use this technique.

However, from the players' side, it's kind of a jerk move. It's hard for a player to think of their beloved weapon getting sundered as "well, I guess the ogre WOULD try to make me less dangerous this way..." instead of "ZOMG THE GM IS BREAKING MY STUFF!" Furthermore, who's more likely to get their stuff broken? The frontliners. The melee. The fighter-types. You know, the ones who really need it. Do we need to make life any harder for meleers than it already is? "Oh, yeah, you could barely keep up in usefulness with the caster anyway, and now that your +awesome sword is gone, well, sucks to be you."

So, there's a conundrum. This is a technique that a lot of monsters would try to use, in my mind, but it feels like it punishes players to actually do it.

So, under what circumstances is it acceptable (to a rational observer on both sides of the table, ideally) for monsters to start trying to break your stuff?

[LibraryOgre]

Sunder wands. Sunder spell component pouches.

[Flickerdart]

Sunder your fighter's weapon so you can reward him with a better weapon in the next room. WBL is maintained, and he gets an upgrade without having to sell the thing.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

It's fine if you are targetting things that don't cost much(though smart players will have half a dozen Holy Symbols because they don't cost much), or if you replace it immediately(The BBEG cleaves through your Flaming Sword with his +2 Adamantite Sword of Awesome).

[Zaq]

Sunder wands. Sunder spell component pouches.

Which, again, has the weird all-or-nothing balance effect. Yeah, the wizzy can get another spell component pouch easily, but for this combat he's got a decent chance of being worthless. Which is, I suppose, a nice change from the usual "I RULE ASS" attitudes of wizards, but still, there are better ways to take a player down a peg than to just have them sit out a combat. (This of course also assumes that the wizard has only one spell component pouch, and that the hulking brute can hit him in the first place.)

Wands are arguably even worse than weapons in terms of sundering. They're really expensive, and they don't become more resilient as they become a bigger deal.

I accept what you're saying as a good counterpoint to my comment about how fighter-types lose the most to sunder-happy monsters, but I'd say it raises as many problems as it addresses.

[DamnedIrishman]

Sundering is always kosher, because D&D isn't included in Hebrew dietary laws.

EDIT: It's halal too! Engorge yourselves!

[Yora]

I think the game is most fun, if you have to fight in unfavorable situations.

- I think when it comes to sunder, the imporant thing is not to overdo it. When the fighter has his blade shatter in his hands, it can add a lot of tension to a scene. But I would try to add it as part of an encounter that is allready memorable by itself, and not while fighting some random guards. When the deathknight swings his mace and shatters the paladins sword to pieces, it can be a very great entrance for a villain. If every orc tries it, it gets just boring.
- And don't doo it too often. If it happens every third or fourth adventure, that's probably more than enough before it gets a costant annoyance.
- What becomes much more important the higher the PCs are in level, is to allow them to have their broken weapon repaired. As you can't just weld togther a magical balde that is shattered to pieces, you would need a really good weapon smith who knows a bit about magical sword and it probably will cost you a bit (10% of creation cost?). But finding one and having the weapon repaired can make for nice side adventures.
- If you know in advance, that some melee fighters will probably lose their main weapon during the adventure, make sure that they can get some kind of backup weapon. If it happened before in the campaign, many players may carry a secondary weapon just for that purpose. If the full plate fighter does only have a greatsword and a dagger, arrange it so, that he can find a temporary replacement after the weapon is broken. It does not have to be a magical greatsword, but a masterwork longsword or masterwork greatsword would do the job too for a while. It probably really depends a lot on the group and the campaign if this means that you should avoid monsters with damage reduction.

[Flickerdart]

Which, again, has the weird all-or-nothing balance effect. Yeah, the wizzy can get another spell component pouch easily, but for this combat he's got a decent chance of being worthless. Which is, I suppose, a nice change from the usual "I RULE ASS" attitudes of wizards, but still, there are better ways to take a player down a peg than to just have them sit out a combat. (This of course also assumes that the wizard has only one spell component pouch, and that the hulking brute can hit him in the first place.)

Wands are arguably even worse than weapons in terms of sundering. They're really expensive, and they don't become more resilient as they become a bigger deal.

I accept what you're saying as a good counterpoint to my comment about how fighter-types lose the most to sunder-happy monsters, but I'd say it raises as many problems as it addresses.

Not all spells have material components, or for clerics, require the holy symbol. Many, but not all.

[quick_comment]

Sundering is fine as long as you replace the equipment soon.

What is not ever ok, is chained dispel magic + chained shatter

[Dogmantra]

Sunder your fighter's weapon so you can reward him with a better weapon in the next room. WBL is maintained, and he gets an upgrade without having to sell the thing.

This is pretty much the only time I'd ever sunder. Using OotS as an example, the only time a weapon's been sundered there (Haley's Bow) there was a chance to get another one really soon.

[DamnedIrishman]

This is pretty much the only time I'd ever sunder. Using OotS as an example, the only time a weapon's been sundered there (Haley's Bow) there was a chance to get another one really soon.

And Elan's rapier.

By speaking too loudly.

[Flickerdart]

Yes, but Elan has never used that thing to any effect before Dashing Swordsman, anyways, so it doesn't matter.

Feel free to sunder your casters' weapons. They probably carry some cheapy ones for just in case, especially the Beguilers and the Clerics.

[Dairun Cates]

And Elan's rapier.

By speaking too loudly.

You know, and Roy's sword, but that wasn't a big deal.

[PinkysBrain]

Sure have sundering opponents ... have ranged opponents who use poison and focus fire on your wizard too.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Sure have sundering opponents ... have ranged opponents who use poison and focus fire on your wizard too.

Wind Wall.

[PinkysBrain]

Assuming you don't allow celerity (which unless you are running a ridiculously high powered game you really should not) one round of poisoned arrows can really cut down the chances of that windwall going up.

[Foryn Gilnith]

That's what you get for advertising yourself as a wizard. Seriously, they act like normal old men for a reason. Sticking out makes you a target.

[annoyinglizardv]

When the storyline benefits from it (and sometimes when the players are roll-playing instead of role-playing and the DM is fed up with this and wants to bring them down a notch :) )

[Choco]

Forget sundering wands or component pouches, if you REALLY want to piss off a Wizard, sunder/disarm his spellbook

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Assuming you don't allow celerity (which unless you are running a ridiculously high powered game you really should not) one round of poisoned arrows can really cut down the chances of that windwall going up.

But the Wizard is far more likely to win Init than you. Meaning that at best you get a surprise round, which isn't nearly as useful.

Edit:

Forget sundering wands or component pouches, if you REALLY want to piss off a Wizard, sunder/disarm his spellbook

Which does nothing for the current battle except waste an action. Yes, the Wizard is permanently nerfed, but that doesn't help you survive his retaliation. Plus, the book probably isn't exctly easy to find/target.

[DSCrankshaw]

You know, and Roy's sword, but that wasn't a big deal.

Well, Roy did get a huge circumstance bonus for the rest of that fight.

But still, OotS has (so far) had 3 weapons destroyed: Roy's sword, Elan's rapier, and Haley's bow.

[Mr.Moron]

Sunder your fighter's weapon so you can reward him with a better weapon in the next room. WBL is maintained, and he gets an upgrade without having to sell the thing.

Exactly. Destroy whatever whenever, so long as you balance it out with some extra treasure it's fine. I'd more cautious around an item if it has some kind of significance to the characters story of course. However so long as you use it such way that it serves as debuff (primary weapon destroyed, forced to use inferior secondary weapon) rather than a permanent wealth loss you're fine.

[Dogmantra]

You know, and Roy's sword, but that wasn't a big deal.

Well he was a fighter, so he wasn't going to contribute usefully anyway

Besides, there were more swords in the loot they got less than five minutes after that battle.

[Thrawn183]

I think it really depends on how hard you make it to find new magic weapons. Can you just walk into town to get a new one, if you can afford it or roleplay out calling in some favors or something, or is it going to take you 2 sessions of being crap for usefulness before you can get a new one?

[Deepblue706]

Sundering is always fine. PCs shouldn't feel entitled to have anything, apart the resources appropriate for the next challenge; which does not inherently include their favorite sword or magic items, etc.

[LibraryOgre]

Wind Wall.

Wind Wall does very little against Eldritch Spear and Poisonous Blast.

[Goatman_Ted]

Wind Wall.

If my archer's move actions can eat the enemy wizard's standard actions, I consider that a blinding success.

[Prophaniti]

I had a titan do his standard sunder on one of my players once. Got some good rolls and his magic shield is almost broken. You don't even need to actually successfully sunder anything, just the look on the player's face at the mere possibility is enough for me. Delicious.

[quick_comment]

Another time I will feel its ok to go sunder happy is when the players are asking for it.

Ie, they just have a nonmagical sword, with persisted GMW and stuff cast on it.

[Myrmex]

Wind Wall.

So he uses up a spell slot and an action to protect his own hide from Weako the Archer. Fine with me.

Another time I will feel its ok to go sunder happy is when the players are asking for it.

Ie, they just have a nonmagical sword, with persisted GMW and stuff cast on it.

Yeah. According to most, you should invest in a cleric and pearls of power, and put the saved gold into other items. In that case, expect routine sunderings.