New Base Class: Desert knife fighter, needs feedba

[LordOfNarf]

Desert Knife Fighter

Game Rule Information:
Abilities: Strength is important to the Desert Knife Fighter because of its role in combat. Dexterity for the AC bonus and ranged bonus and wisdom is important for many class skills.
Alignment: Any nonchaotic
Hit Die: d8

Class Skills:
The Desert Knife fighter’s class skills (and the key ability modifier for each) are Appraise (Int), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (geography)(Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Survival (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st level: (4+Int modifier) x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+Int modifier

BAB: as fighter

Good saves:Fort, Ref

Poor saves:Will

Knife damage
Knife Damage
1d4
1d4
1d6
1d6
1d6
1d8
1d8
1d8
1d8
1d8
1d10
1d10
1d10
1d10
1d10
2d6
2d6
2d6
2d6
2d6

(each row is one level 1-20 respectivly)

Class Features:
All of the following are class features of the Desert Knife Fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Desert Knife Fighter is proficient in all simple weapons, and the throwing axe, handaxe, short sword, scimitar, khopesh, sapara, longbow, shortbow, composite longbow, and composite shortbow. Desert Knife Fighters are proficient in light, nonmetallic, armor, but not shields. A destert Knife fighter can wear metallic armour, but is treated as nonproficient when doing so.
Knife Damage: A Desert Knife Fighter trains extensively with a dagger, and therefore, can do more damage as shown in table 1-1, the Desert Knife Fighter.
Knife Specialization: A Desert Knife Fighter has a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with a dagger. This increases to +2 at 5th level and then every 5th level thereafter it increases by +1.
Double Knife: Because of her extensive training, and the lightweight of a knife, a Desert Knife Fighter of at least 2nd level can wield a knife in both hands with a -2 penalty on each hand, using full attacks per round.
Knife Defense: A Desert Knife Fighter trains extensively in how to defend herself with a knife, due to the lack of material to make shields out of in the desolate dunes she calls home. At 3rd level she can claim a +1 shield bonus to AC for a dagger wielded in her off hand. At every 5th level this ability increases by +1.
Throwing Master: At 4th level a Desert Knife Fighter can throw a dagger flawlessly. She treats all light or one-handed blades with a listed range increment as if she was proficient for the purpose of throwing them only. Also, the range increment is doubled for the Desert Knife Fighter and she can throw as a full attack as if she had the Quick Draw feat.
Fear not the Sand or Sun: A 7th level Desert Knife Fighter stops being affected by weather, and no longer needs to make saves against non-damaging weather effects. Also, when a desert Knife Fighter would become fatigued, she does not, and when she would become exhausted, she instead becomes fatigued.
Eternal Wanderer: A 9th level Desert Knife Fighter has walked for so long in uncharted, featureless land that she now always knows true north. Additionally, a Desert Knife Fighter instinctively makes a map of wherever they go, and can define exact dimensions in a single glance. Even if her senses are impaired in any way, a Desert Knife Fighter can know the precise way through anywhere she has been before.
Fan of Knives: Once per day a Desert Knife Fighter of at least 12th level can take a full attack action to make one ranged attack with a light or one handed blade with a listed range increment against every opponent within the ten feet, all the attacks must be made with the same weapon type, and all attacks use her highest attack bonus. If she does not have enough ammunition to complete this action, then the Desert Knife Fighter may choose who she attacks.
Haunted Soul of the Wastes: At 17th level, a Desert Knife Fighter has seen so much horror from the unforgiving sands that she has simply stopped caring. She becomes immune to all figments, patterns, glimmers, phantasms, fear effects, and enchantments. In addition, she becomes true neutral, regardless of what her alignment was before.

What do you think?

[BG]

I'm not terribly good with systems, but I'd have to say that "Desert Knife Fighter" seems a bit specific. Why the desert? The flavor makes it a bit restricting to be a base class. Take a rogue, for example. They don't really have to be thieves, I can think of a lot of character concepts that would be rogues. In this case...well, you'd basically have to be a wanderer from the desert who uses knives. This also mostly just sounds like a particularly narrow interpretation of a ranger. It sounds like it could be an alright PrC, but I don't think it would work as a base class.

[8bit_thief]

Cool concept but a bit overpowered

Just so you know, I am a huge fan of daggerist rogues, (playing an I. Blade now actually...) this class seems to lose the sneaking capabillity, and makes up for it in terms of brawn, which makes sense, but anyway, here is my opinion:

Abilities: Strength is important to the Desert Knife Fighter because of its role in combat. Dexterity for the AC bonus and ranged bonus and wisdom is important for many class skills.

fine

Alignment: Any Lawful
Hit Die: d8

Why any lawful, maybe any nonchaotic would work better.

Class Skills:
The Desert Knife fighter’s class skills (and the key ability modifier for each) are Appraise (Int), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (geography)(Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Survival (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st level: (4+Int modifier) x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+Int modifier

Good

BAB: as fighter

Reasonable, though a bit on the powerful side

Good saves:Fort, Ref

I can see why you chose these, but I would advise dropping the good ref to bad, or at least to a mid-save. if you are going all out on the brutal approach, ref can be dropped. Helps balance the class a bit

Poor saves:Will

fine

Knife damage
Knife Damage
1d6
1d6
1d6
1d6
1d6
1d8
1d8
1d8
1d8
1d8
1d10
1d10
1d10
1d10
1d10
2d6
2d6
2d6
2d6
2d6

(each row is one level 1-20 respectivly)
at high levels dice really don't matter, but I would advise making the damage 1d4 at the beginning, for like 2 levels

Class Features:
All of the following are class features of the Desert Knife Fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Desert Knife Fighter is proficient in all simple weapons, and the throwing axe, handaxe, short sword, scimitar, khopesh, sapara, longbow, shortbow, composite longbow, and composite shortbow. Desert Knife Fighters are proficient in light armor, but not shields.

tolerable, though I would add kukri to this list

Knife Damage: A Desert Knife Fighter trains extensively with a dagger, and therefore, can do more damage as shown in table 1-1, the Desert Knife Fighter.
Knife Specialization: A Desert Knife Fighter has a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with a dagger. This increases to +2 at 5th level and then every 5th level
thereafter it increases by +1.

not overpowered ability, but I would advise making it precision based damage

Double Knife: Because of her extensive training, and the lightweight of a knife, a Desert Knife Fighter of at least 2nd level can wield a knife in both hands without penalty, using full attack bonus and attacks per round.
BAD BAD BAD - free TWF with no penalty is INCREDIBLY powerful, I would make them get TWF at level 2, then ITWF at level 6 etc, like a ranger, and MAYBE lower the penalty to -1 at higher levels.
Knife Defense: A Desert Knife Fighter trains extensively in how to defend herself with a knife, due to the lack of material to make shields out of in the desolate dunes she calls home. At 3rd level she can claim a +1 shield bonus to AC for a dagger wielded in her on hand. At every 5th level this ability increases by +1. A Desert Knife Fighter can claim ½ this bonus (rounded down) for a dagger in her off hand.
just to simplyfy, why not just give the TW defense and ITW defense at the appropriate levels
Throwing Master: At 4th level a Desert Knife Fighter can throw a dagger flawlessly. She treats all light or one-handed blades with a listed range increment as if she was proficient for the purpose of throwing them only. Also, the range increment is doubled for the Desert Knife Fighter and she can throw as a full attack as if she had the Quick Draw feat.
I would limit it to only daggers, but that's just me.

Fear not the Sand or Sun: A 7th level Desert Knife Fighter stops being affected by weather, and no longer needs to make saves against non-damaging weather effects. Also, when a desert Knife Fighter would become fatigued, she does not, and when she would become exhausted, she instead becomes fatigued.
fine
Eternal Wanderer: A 9th level Desert Knife Fighter has walked for so long in uncharted, featureless land that she now always knows true north. Additionally, a Desert Knife Fighter instinctively makes a map of wherever they go, and can define exact dimensions in a single glance. Even if her senses are impaired in any way, a Desert Knife Fighter can know the precise way through anywhere she has been before.
Fine
Fan of Knives: A Desert Knife Fighter of at least 12th level can take a full attack action to make one ranged attack with a light or one handed blade with a listed range increment against every opponent within the first range increment, all the attacks must be made with the same weapon type, and all attacks use her highest attack bonus. If she does not have enough ammunition to complete this action, then the Desert Knife Fighter may choose who she attacks.
JUST NO, limit it to 1/day or 2/day. NOT infinite
Haunted Soul of the Wastes: At 17th level, a Desert Knife Fighter has seen so much horror from the unforgiving sands that she has simply stopped caring. She becomes immune to all figments, patterns, glimmers, phantasms, fear effects, and enchantments. In addition, she becomes true neutral, regardless of what her alignment was before.
Fine

With these adjustments I think your class would be more or less balanced, just trust me, TWF with no penalties and the Fan of knives are just a bit much.

[Orion-the-G]

Agreed, it does seem really specific for a core character (even the paladin isn't this focused). It also seems way too powerful.

At second level it gets an ability that is better than the ranger's fighting style.

It gets damage increases similar to a monks but they work on both ranged and melee weapons

It gets fighter's BAB, in fact it gets better because of the knife specialization which by 20th level gives it +4 to attack and damage.

they get armor proficiency and the ability to gain a shield bonus from a dagger, a shield bonus that gets to be very large at higher levels.

I'm a little confused by throwing master, the only thing I can assume is that it must be mostly for exotic weapons. other than the doubled range increment it seems like it's all redundant to the rules as they stand.

The immunity to fatigue might be too powerful (just take a level in barbarian and you have consequentless rage)

Fan of knives is insanely powerful, when combined with the doubled range increment from throwing master and the bonuses to attack and damage they get.

Haunted Soul of the wastes....first the immunities it grants are really really really powerful. I mean just straight up immunity to enchantment? Not to mention the true nuetral thing conflicts with the fact that they must be lawful.


EDIT: just from a combat standpoint it's way too powerful I mean at 20th level the class gets a +6 shield bonus to AC, +24/+24/+19/+14/+9 attack and inflicts 2d6+4 with each attack and can make a +24 ranged attack for 2d6+4 against everything within 20 feet! That's without feat, magic item and ability score bonuses! That's crazy all by itself, not to mention the possible balance issues with the non-combat abilities.

[JimmyDPawn]

Pretty nifty, i like the flavour overall.

There is a thing or two that you might want to consider though. I think that Double knife is a little too good. You're already doing more damage with a dagger, (about equivilent to a monk I believe?) which is fine, and neat so i would suggest something more like this;
Double Knife: When weilding two daggers (or whatever similar weapons you want to count as well) the DKF is considered to have two weapon fighting.
At level he gains Improved two weapons fighting, and at 11 (i think thats the right level) Greater two waepon fighting
These feats may only be applied while he is using a dagger in each hand.
This will also allow you to apply for feats that have two weapon fighting as a prerequisite. there a -2 penalty, but it's nothing that any other two weapon fighter doesn't have to deal with.

Knife defence... I'm not sure about that.

So it's
lvl 3 +1
lvl 8 +2
lvl 13 +3
lvl 18 +4

And then if you'r using two weapons
lvl 3 +1
lvl 8 +3
lvl 13 +4
lvl 18 +6

Personally, I think it's good enough without the additional AC bonus with the offhanded weapon. Try it with just the one bonus, regardless if he's weilding on or two daggers.

Otherwise, it's really sweet.

[Gyrfalcon]

Not going to be a full-on criticism, but if I was taking a rogue, I'd definately multi-class into Desert Knife Fighter right now for exactly two levels to get

A) better damage with my knives and B) an ability that's better then the epic feat Perfect TWF and the three feats that came before it.

I agree with 8bit_thief that you should offer the feats as they do with the ranger, to encourage staying with the class.

[JimmyDPawn]

Cool concept but a bit overpowered...


Fan of Knives: A Desert Knife Fighter of at least 12th level can take a full attack action to make one ranged attack with a light or one handed blade with a listed range increment against every opponent within the first range increment, all the attacks must be made with the same weapon type, and all attacks use her highest attack bonus. If she does not have enough ammunition to complete this action, then the Desert Knife Fighter may choose who she attacks.
JUST NO, limit it to 1/day or 2/day. NOT infinite

o_0 Whoa... i didn't even realize what fan of knives did the first time i read it... ya, might want to tone it down.
If you don't want to put a per day limit on it, I wouldn't have it hit any father then reach (5ft)

[AmoDman]

People seem to be doing good on criticism of the munchies, but what popped out for me was the Alignment restriction. It just, I don't think, makes any sense. There doesn't seem to be any need for lawful (or non-chaotic). They don't really have a code, and, when I envision the (possible) character(s) I often see chaotic, not lawful. At least, whenever I think of those characters known for knife-fighting, they're most usually devious and/or selfish or whatever (not always, but ya, I don't understand this requirement at all...).

I'll tell you what, though, it was funny how quickly the idea solidified in my head. When I saw the name I instantly thought of the double knife fighting main character from the desert you could play as in Secet of Mana 2 (Seiken Denetsu 3) for the SNES. Good game, and my favorite character ;).

[Orion-the-G]

Yeah, especially because they turn true neutral automatically at level 17. I don't reccomend that anyway simply because it's dictating how a character must act in order to continue in the class they started with (not to mention it assumes a lot about the character's experiences)


As for the fan of knives here's a good comparison:

The arcane archer's hail of arrows ability. once per day they can fire at all targets within range. This is the ability gained by a *prestige class* at a minimum of 14th level and it's badly outclassed by fan of knives which is the 12th level ability of a core class.

[Catch]

True, but knives have a range increment of 10 feet, as compared to a longbow's range of 100. Still, drop Fan of Knives to 1/day.

[Orion-the-G]

I know it's just the closest equivalent other than whirlwind attack. not to mention this guy's knives do 1d10+2 damage and have a range of 20 feet, so I'd say it more than balances out the lesser range

[Donsic]

I think Jimmypawn is on the right track it doesn't say what the armor proof is, just that they have it. I'd say light (maybe nonmetal) because one of the reasons that you said for the knife defence was lack of materials to make shields, thus they would not have enough material for metal armors. Add this with the weakening on fan of knives (5 foot range and x amount of times per day) and give the twf feats like a ranger for insentive and instead of immunity to those spells, give it like a +4 bonus save and then you can add a cape stone power and you have a class.

Really lowering the range on fan of knives might not even help because all he would have to do is wait for the tank to engage the bulk of the enemies and tumble into range throw the knives and screw over the badies the (with spring attack) tumble a safer distance away.

[LordOfNarf]

Ok, thanks for the feedback, i made this class because i like specific base classes, and the idea was too good to pass up. I changed the fan of knives, the knife defense, and the duble knife.

What do you think now?

[JimmyDPawn]

Cool.

Okay, here's an idea for the people who don't like the 'changes alignment to neutral.'

Just like how a high level monk is 'treated' as an outsider....

"The DKF is now treated as having a Neutral alignment, for the purposes of spells and other effects, regardless their actual alignment."

I don't know how the phrasing on that is, but how does that sound?

[AmoDman]

Cool.

Okay, here's an idea for the people who don't like the 'changes alignment to neutral.'

Just like how a high level monk is 'treated' as an outsider....

"The DKF is now treated as having a Neutral alignment, for the purposes of spells and other effects, regardless their actual alignment."

I don't know how the phrasing on that is, but how does that sound?

It's odd, but I guess it could make sense...I dunno (I'm, personally, relating the idea to Dune here...best example I can think of), I still think the nonchaotic just doesn't suit up well at all. That may just be my opinion...but it seems such a random thing completely un-related to the class (specific or not).

[Amotis]

Yea, I agree. A bit overpowe

[turkishproverb]

Someones been reading too much frank Herbert.......


I'd say the class is a wee bit overpowered, but a cool concept.

[bosssmiley]

You can do the same thing in 5 levels with the Invisible Blade PrC. Why expand it to a 20th level class ???