The price of a moat[3.5]

[Myrmex]

The Stonghold Builder's Guide lists the price of a moat at 50,000 gp.

I just thought I'd point out this absurdity. It's pretty absurd.

[rampaging-poet]

Perhaps it assumes you've got people casting move earth to dig the thing and you fill it with repeated castings of create water?

Yeah, that price is out to lunch. At least half the stuff in that book is overpriced, although someone did figure out how to make a floating cube of destruction using Stronghold Builder's Guide rules.

[dspeyer]

That's 500,000 unskilled person-days of shovelling. For a 10 ft wide, 10 ft deep 200 ft diameter circle, that's roughly 10 person-days per cubic foot of earth to be removed.

[Emy]

Cast Move Earth yourself and/or have cohorts cast it. Fill using the Decanter of Endless Water you undoubtedly have.

There, now it's almost free :)

Also, to be fair, there's a lot of overpriced stuff in the Stronghold Builder's Guide, but thanks to the Landlord feat it doesn't have to be taken out of your normal WBL.

[Asheram]

Perhaps it assumes you've got people casting move earth to dig the thing and you fill it with repeated castings of create water?

Yeah, that price is out to lunch. At least half the stuff in that book is overpriced, although someone did figure out how to make a floating cube of destruction using Stronghold Builder's Guide rules.

Got a link to that?
It just sounds like such a wondrous mcguffin. :D

[Coidzor]

Got a link to that?
It just sounds like such a wondrous mcguffin. :D

http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/in.../t-906525.html

living in a flying box.

[Deth Muncher]

http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/in.../t-906525.html

living in a flying box.

Should any of my characters see someone going by in a flying box, they would likely remark "Wow. What a d--k."

Because then, said person would be a d--k in a box, wouldn't he?

[shadow_archmagi]

http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/in.../t-906525.html

living in a flying box.

Good god that is a beautiful thing. That is so going to be either an encounter or the goal of my next PC.

[Glimbur]

The Stonghold Builder's Guide lists the price of a moat at 50,000 gp.

I just thought I'd point out this absurdity. It's pretty absurd.

Logically, you should get paid for a moat because you can give away the dirt that used to be there.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Lesser Planar Binding -> Thoqqua.

Your moat is ready.

[wykydtron]

Buy some giant earthworms or worms of some sort and get them to eat/burrow a big hole around it. Then fill it up with your Decanter of Endless Water.

Edit:^^^Ninja'd.

[TheThan]

Logically, you should get paid for a moat because you can give away the dirt that used to be there.

you mean sell not give. Giving something doesn't require payment. Selling does.

[oxinabox]

I link
How to Destoy a mountain via, adamantine Greats swords.
And furthur down how much str you would require to lift one

Though it might be relevent

[mistformsquirrl]

... that flying box is pretty nice <^_^> makes me want to rebuild my old crawly-tank. (It's pretty similar to the flying box, only it simply crawls and isn't quite so tough.)

[ericgrau]

That's 500,000 unskilled person-days of shovelling. For a 10 ft wide, 10 ft deep 200 ft diameter circle, that's roughly 10 person-days per cubic foot of earth to be removed.

Astounding assumption, since it says a moat is 15 feet deep by 30 feet wide.

Logically, you should get paid for a moat because you can give away the dirt that used to be there.

Good thing you reminded me about that, since hauling away the dirt is a major construction expense. Typically it is re-used somewhere else on-site since the more typical scenario of paying someone else to take it tends to cost way too much to transport. Or if someone else needs it you give it away for free (but they still pay a bundle to bring it to their property).

Alright, time to kill time on a real estimation. A castle has 15-25 rooms, a courtyard and a 10 foot wall. A "huge castle" also has stables, etc. Assuming an 800 foot perimeter, the total moat volume is 800x30x15=360,000 cubic feet. 50,000 gp / 360,000 CF = about 1.5 sp per cubic foot. Assuming unskilled labor at 1 sp then that says it takes 1 person 1.5 days to dig out a cubic foot, cart the dirt elsewhere and pack the dirt down so it's suitable to build on top of. It's not nearly as soft as the planting dirt in your backyard, but they also use pickaxes to loosen it up. If old movies are any indication, 2 people should be able to get ~30 cubic feet in a day, or 15 per person. Maybe if we assume a "huge castle" and higher wages for backbreaking labor (other examples of unskilled labor aren't) then that'd make it more reasonable. And none of that includes the cost of the drawbridge. Still a bit much, but it could be worse.

Move earth could handle it in just one spell, assuming you keep the moved dirt on site. Paying an NPC would then be 11*6*10 = 660gp if you could find a nearby "legendary" (level 11+) caster willing to do it. One of the listed spell uses is in fact "digging moats". So 50,000 gp is rather absurb compared to that. Or else the cost of the drawbridge is absurb.

Maybe the (30 foot long) bridge is made of stone like the 50,000gp (30 foot tall) tower. Stone isn't cheap to get, transport or build. Should still probably be a lot cheaper than the tower though.

[Doc Roc]

I link
How to Destoy a mountain via, adamantine Greats swords.
And furthur down how much str you would require to lift one

Though it might be relevent

Those numbers look off. I spent some time recently calculating what you would need to pull various terrain features around, and I came up with much higher numbers. :|

[bosssmiley]

That's 500,000 unskilled person-days of shovelling. For a 10 ft wide, 10 ft deep 200 ft diameter circle, that's roughly 10 person-days per cubic foot of earth to be removed.

Wow. Their union rep is obviously a diplomancer.

Divide the SBG price by a factor of at least ten. Digging a moat is quick and easy with enough cheap labour. It there's one thing peasants do well, it's dig holes in soil.

Logically, you should get paid for a moat because you can give away the dirt that used to be there.

[MartinHarper]

The Stonghold Builder's Guide lists the price of a moat at 50,000 gp.

I just thought I'd point out this absurdity. It's pretty absurd.

Just put it on expenses. Who's going to find out?

[Cyclocone]

Just put it on expenses. Who's going to find out?

The Press! noone trusts a man with a moat these days.

[Lycanthromancer]

I had a discussion about something like this.

I can build an entire keep for nothing more than the cost of material components, since I'd have the spells to do it myself anyway.

Really, the SBG is totally absurd.

[Person_Man]

Obviously a DM can overrule any published price and change it based on availability and difficulty. In this case, it should really be a variable price based on size, elevation, availability of water, and whether or not you care about it being stagnant (and thus a breeding ground of mosquitoes and disease) or want to pay for the expense circulating water (ie, building a sewage system). If you want to build a moat around a small tower in the Netherlands (where they have to build a 100 ft levys to prevent things from flooding), it would be cheap. If you want to build a moat around Jerusalem (on the spur of a plateau 2,500 ft up in the middle of a desert) it would be more expensive.

[ericgrau]

^ What you're gonna channel a river through it to keep it circulating or you gonna use magical pumps? I don't think even a decanter of endless water is fast enough.

The common way to deal with unavoidable stagnant water, which medieval people would inadvertantly employ, would be to make sure it always stays full. Mosquito breeding would then be a problem for about a week. After that the dragonflies move into the moat. Later mosquito fish also move in somehow. Don't ask me how they make it there, but they do.

And I can't believe I forgot the cost of bringing in the water. Transporting all that water would be crazy, and much more than the cost of digging. So now the cost of the moat is pretty reasonable... unless you find and pay a caster for move earth, (horizontal) walls of stone and get a decanter of endless water. Then we're looking at more like 10-12k.

[Curmudgeon]

Haven't you ever dealt with a building contractor? This is list price. Such prices are always inflated.

Just as a real-world example, I got quotes to run a new gas line to my kitchen when I changed ovens. One guy came in and just wrote up "$2995.00", claiming that was the standard price in his quote book. I actually got the job done for about $730, including parts.

Contractor prices.

[Myrmex]

I'm not sure you guys understand how cheap peasant labor really is. It's so cheap, you don't have to pay for it, because you have a sword.

And if they still complain about not getting a wage?

First, I kill you.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

First, I kill you.

First, last, and always. If necromancy doesn't solve your Evil Overlord Secret Base construction issues, you're not using enough of it.

[MickJay]

If you're building a castle, you probably have some land; if you have land, you can get people to live on it, pay you rent and in most feudal systems these people would also be obliged to work for you for a set number of days a year, as part of the deal they have with you. Historically, that could have been anywhere between 2-3 days/year to something like 8 days/week (where members of the household would be working with the head of the family for the lord).

[Lamech]

I'm not an expert on building moats or castles, but I have some questions?

If at all possible wouldn't you want your castle to be built on hard ground? Not easily diggable dirt? Saves a lot of work down the road when people try digging to your castle. Especially if they have a burrow speed. And secondly wouldn't water in a dirt moat drain away at a good clip? At least of the course of a few days?

[chiasaur11]

First, last, and always. If necromancy doesn't solve your Evil Overlord Secret Base construction issues, you're not using enough of it.

What about someone stopping you with a garden?

Yer necromancy ain't so high and mighty then, is it?

[Coidzor]

What about someone stopping you with a garden?

Yer necromancy ain't so high and mighty then, is it?

But what about necromancers who ARE gardeners?

[Ravens_cry]

What about someone stopping you with a garden?

Yer necromancy ain't so high and mighty then, is it?

IS THERE A REFERENCE HERE? BECAUSE I PERSONALLY AM NOT GETTING HOW A SIMPLE GARDEN STOPS NECROMANCY. A PAGODA YES, BUT A GARDEN?