Would this item for throwers be too powerful?

[RMApok]

One of the problems that I've seen when trying to build a character around thrown weapons is the sheer expense of magic weapons. You are either restricted to spending ALL of your money on magic knives, axes, etc, or suffer doing far less damage and probably having a smaller chance to hit.

However, archers have the ability to enchant all their arrows with but one bow, so.....

Would an item, such as gloves or a ring, that allowed the weapon to become magical for the duration of the attack be overpowered?

For example, a +1 ring of Flame that allows every knife thrown by the user to be treated as a +1 Flaming dagger for the duration of the attack be reasonable?

The item would only allow the magic to take effect as soon as the weapon left your grip (so it wouldn't work for melee attacks) and the magic would expire as soon as the attack is resolved.

Would this work? What cost would you put on it? Same as a weapon, or maybe more?

More restrictions, maybe? Like the ring only works for knives?

Thoughts, please.

[Person_Man]

My personal feeling is that it would be a bad idea.

Most thrown weapons also threaten the adjacent square, whereas bows and crossbows do not. Even if the thrown weapon didn't gain any magical ability until it leaves your hands, it still gives them an additional benefit over bows and crossbows, thus there is no reason to use or buy a magical bow, when you could buy your theoretical magical gloves.

There are also several prestige class builds (the Master Thrower being the best one) that could be seriously "broken" by such an item. One of the big, and important, limitations on such classes and on thrown weapons in general is that you quickly run out of them. That limitation is there for a reason.

Just my 2 cents.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

thus there is no reason to use or buy a magical bow, when you could buy your theoretical magical gloves.

What about range increments greater than 60 ft. (Javelin + Far Shot)?

Or 1 bow and 20 arrows weighs a heck of a lot less than 20 daggers/javelins/darts?

There are also several prestige class builds (the Master Thrower being the best one) that could be seriously "broken" by such an item.

Now, I'd have to check that out, but I'm not so certain it would necessarily be broken. Particularly keeping in mind that you should probably add the "wrong item slot" surcharge to the ring. With my above observations in mind (particularly the limited ammo implication of the second), I'd hazard a guess that a magic bow is a whole lot more abusive in the hands of one of the gazillion über-archer PrCs than the special ring is in the hands of a Master Thrower.

Anyway, assuming that non-brokenness, I rather like this ring idea. Keep it as is and charge the same you would for the same magic weapon + the wrong slot surcharge.

[prufock]

Sounds perfectly reasonable. Daggers already have lower range and base damage than bows, so it's still relatively weak. As long as you price it accordingly, I don't see a problem.

It's conceptually similar to having a single dagger (or a number of daggers equal to your attacks per round) with a special ability + returning.

Let's try to build it!

Glove of Bestowment (Throwing)
This leather glove is embroidered with magical runes. This glove can be imbued with any enhancement or special ability that applies to ranged weapons, following the same rules. The cost of these enhancements and special abilities is additional to the cost of the glove.
At the time of creation, a single type of throwing weapon (dagger, club, shortspear, spear, dart, javelin, throwing axe, light hammer, trident, shuriken, or net) is specified. Any mundane weapon of that type that is thrown with the hand wearing the Glove of Bestowment is treated as having the enhancement and special abilities that are imbued on the glove. Already magical weapons are not affected.
For example, a Glove of Dagger Bestowment (Throwing), that has a +1 enhancement and the Flaming special ability would bestow a +1 enhancement and the Flaming ability on any mundane dagger thrown with the hand the glove is worn on.

Moderate transmutation; CL 1st; Craft Wondrous Item, Magic Weapon; Price 2000 gp (one glove).

Good, bad, needs work?

[The_Logic_Ninja]

I wouldn't do it as a glove--I'd make it, for example, a Bandolier of Daggers. Any dagger placed in the bandolier for a round gains the properties of the bandolier for 1 round after it's withdrawn. Give it a starting cost of, say, 3000, and have it make them +1 (a +1 weapon normally costs 2000)--and then make it enhanceable as a ranged weapon. Returning would be the first thing to slap on it. :P

Throwing weapons have enough built-in inferorities (range, damage, and the like) that such an item would be valued by a thrower character, but would hardly be overpowered.

[Maxymiuk]

Isn't there a Returning enhancement you can put on thrown weapons? It makes the weapon teleport back into your hand after it scores a hit/misses.

Or am I thinking of another system?

[The_Logic_Ninja]

There's Returning, but it appears next round, in the square it was thrown from. So you can't throw it then move, and if you want to throw more than one per round, you need to have multiple enchanted daggers, which is very, very expensive.

There's a psionic version called Teleporting, also a +1 enhancement, which is slightly better because it appears in your hand next round, even if you move. However, you're still limited to using it once/round and having to get other magic ones (or normal ones) for the rest of the time.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

There's Returning, but it appears next round, in the square it was thrown from. So you can't throw it then move, and if you want to throw more than one per round, you need to have multiple enchanted daggers, which is very, very expensive.

There's a psionic version called Teleporting, also a +1 enhancement, which is slightly better because it appears in your hand next round, even if you move. However, you're still limited to using it once/round and having to get other magic ones (or normal ones) for the rest of the time.

Okay, say you are a high level human fighter with rapid shot. You throw 5 or 6 returning/teleporting daggers. The next round, they all return/teleport. But you only have two hands with which to catch them. Wouldn't this cause problems?

[Raolin_Fenix]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain thrown weapons have one *big* bonus that bows do not.

Thrown weapons gain the wielder's strength modifier to their damage, whereas bows and crossbows do not. Again, I'm not certain this is the case, but I think so.

If that's the case, I would go ahead and say that thrown weapons are powerful enough as it is. There's a reason the game mechanics don't allow for what you describe for thrown weapons, while they do for bows.

Add a returning enchantment to a few daggers/axes, and throw in a few ranks in Tumble for style. You throw a few daggers and run for it, then next round you dive through threatened squares and pick up your weapons in one action, and you're good to go again.

Alternatively, you could just throw the weapons *after* your move action. So run first, then throw. Then by the time you can move again, the weapons have returned.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

Thrown weapons do add strength, but like I said--very short range. Also, composite bows add certain amounts of strength to damage--any decent-STR archer has a Composite Longbow with a +(his STR bonus) pull... and since both throwers and archers are DEX-based, adding STR doesn't normally mean that much. Bows tend to be +4 at most.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Thrown weapons gain the wielder's strength modifier to their damage, whereas bows and crossbows do not. Again, I'm not certain this is the case, but I think so.

Check out mighty bows. Considerably cheaper than this ring for anything less than a +20 Str bonus (50 Str). And that's assuming the ring is only 2,000 gp.

Throwing builds tend to prioritize Dex over Str in order to maximize chances of hitting anyway. So the Str isn't a huge bonus. The greater range and ammo capacity far outstrip that.

[Person_Man]

Let's try to build it!

Glove of Bestowment (Throwing)
This leather glove is embroidered with magical runes. This glove can be imbued with any enhancement or special ability that applies to ranged weapons, following the same rules. The cost of these enhancements and special abilities is additional to the cost of the glove.
At the time of creation, a single type of throwing weapon (dagger, club, shortspear, spear, dart, javelin, throwing axe, light hammer, trident, shuriken, or net) is specified. Any mundane weapon of that type that is thrown with the hand wearing the Glove of Bestowment is treated as having the enhancement and special abilities that are imbued on the glove. Already magical weapons are not affected.
For example, a Glove of Dagger Bestowment (Throwing), that has a +1 enhancement and the Flaming special ability would bestow a +1 enhancement and the Flaming ability on any mundane dagger thrown with the hand the glove is worn on.

Moderate transmutation; CL 1st; Craft Wondrous Item, Magic Weapon; Price 2000 gp (one glove).

Good, bad, needs work?

Ok, you guys make a reasonable argument. But I would up the price a bit and I have it take one magical ring slot. Maybe make its construction a side quest as well, just for fun. If the PC is willing to go through that and has an interesting idea, I'd let them have it.

Raolin_Fenix:
The Str bonus issue is resolved by having a composite bow. However, composite bows have to be made for a specific Str bonus (+1,+2,+3, etc) that can't be increased after the bow is made and can't be used by someone without that Str bonus or higher.

Shhalahr Windrider:
You're correct about thrown weapons with returning. "A returning weapon flies through the air back to the creature that threw it. It returns to the thrower just before the creature’s next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn)." So if you don't have an empty hand to catch it, it drops on the ground somewhere near you, and you need to spend an action to pick it up, thus effectively limiting you to two thrown weapons of returning per round.

I still have concerns about a Monk/Master Thrower with Vorpal shuriken or other similar builds. Adding a high rate of fire weapon to a powerful magical property (Vorpal, Brilliant Energy, Wounding) seems unbalancing to me. But if the PC is mature about what magic properties they imbue, it could be done.

[Thiel]

Try looking in this thread http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb...1513972;start=

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I still have concerns about a Monk/Master Thrower with Vorpal shuriken or other similar builds. Adding a high rate of fire weapon to a powerful magical property (Vorpal, Brilliant Energy, Wounding) seems unbalancing to me. But if the PC is mature about what magic properties they imbue, it could be done.

Well, I think the obvious restriction on this ring is that it only bestows properties that can be used on ranged weapons. Vorpal and Wounding would, therefore, not qualify. Brilliant Energy, meanwhile, would be no diefferent than a high rate of fire bow with the same enchantment in the hands of an über-archer.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

Meh, a character with archery and Rapid Shot and a Speed bow can get a great rate of fire, too, and does not have to stay so close to combat. A high rate of fire, such as a monk/master shuriken thrower, also means a much lower AB.

Also, shuriken count as ammunition not as thrown weapons for enchantment purposes.

[Godhand]

Another thing to point out, if you have little to no str. as a thrower its ok. The Master Thrower offers a skill that lets you throw twice as many daggers with no str. bonus. Now if you add that with a good BAB, sneak attack AND magic daggers, you have a thrower who can take down most foes in one round.

This is why you cant have that nifty item, Thats like giving a master thrower/rogue at level 13 three, maybe four extra magic daggers AND only one item to spend their money on. All of their daggers get the enchantment so they can spend their excess money on other magic items to increase their offensive power. It's a really good idea, but it could be power gamed way out of proportion. If you wanted to use it, Id suggest making it similiar to the magic item monks can get to enhance their fists to +x weapons, it makes it pricey, and also a decent consideration.

But thats just my 2 cents.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

Okay, all the daggers add the enchantment. And? As a master thrower, you can do some special things, like throw two at a time, etc. A melee fighter can hack with his sword all day long--and a Master Thrower is almost as close to melee as a melee character.

The archer, meanwhile, is plinking away with Rapid Shot and his +1 Composite (+4 STR) Flaming Holy Shock Bow for 1d8 + 1 + 4 + 2d6 + 2d6 vs. evil a shot.

[2nd_Ed_Paladin]

Perhaps the ring/bandolier could have a maximum enchantment bonus depending on the level of the item. For example a lesser bandolier of bestowment could only add a total of +2 to the enchantment of the weapon with a base cost of 2000 GP, normal = +4 at 8000, greater = +6 at 16000. The enchantments granted would be at the appropriate additional cost.

In this way you effectively delay the aquisition of a normal weapon enhancement for the ECL by 2-3 levels, assuming you follow the welath by level guidelines

Also to avoid potential munchkinery make the item so that the enchantment only takes effect after 1 hour in the bandolier.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

Well, if it was returning, and you had 5 daggers, you could throw'em all, and they'd return the next round, but if the enchantment only lasted for an hour--oops! They're not magical anymore. I think making the bandolier the equivalent of a +1 weapon is fair--that way, +1 daggers from the bandolier are the equivalent of +2 weapons, etc.

[Person_Man]

Well, I think the obvious restriction on this ring is that it only bestows properties that can be used on ranged weapons. Vorpal and Wounding would, therefore, not qualify. Brilliant Energy, meanwhile, would be no diefferent than a high rate of fire bow with the same enchantment in the hands of an über-archer.

Point conceded.

Still, consider a PC with two such gloves. One is Flaming Burst and one is Icy burst. You're a 3 Monk/4 Fighter/5 Master Thrower. You're chosen tricks are Palm throw (each attack can be with two weapons), Trip Shot (On a successful thrown weapon attack, you
can make a Trip Attack in addition to the damage) and Weak Spot (makes attacks Ranged Touch attacks). You have Flurry of Blows, Weapon Focus and Specialization in shuriken, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, and Improved Critical. I don't have the time to work out the math right now, but it seems like you'd get 8 ranged touch attacks that are also trip attacks and do 5-11 damage each, with an extra d10 or two from a critical almost every round. I'm sure there's a way you could get even more with two handed fighting.

Very powerful for a 12th level character, and perhaps unbalancing, depending on the campaign.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

That's no more powerful than any "good" build. Besides, as a low-level monk you're either wearing armor and not getting monk abilities or not wearing armor and having a lower AC.

Meanwhile, a Swashbuckler3/Fighter4/Tempest 5 can fight with two weapons without penalties, gets 3 attacks with each hand, and deals 1d6 (let's say shortswords) + STR + INT + 1d6 for Flaming property + 1d6 for Shocking property each hit. He's also got a higher AC.

Yeah, Master Thrower is good, but you can "break" it just as hard with sneak attacks, say. And you can make other level 12 characters that are just as good. (A melee cleric with Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic for it, anyone? Or an Invisible Blade swashbucklerogue?)

[Person_Man]

Yeah, Master Thrower is good, but you can "break" it just as hard with sneak attacks, say. And you can make other level 12 characters that are just as good. (A melee cleric with Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic for it, anyone? Or an Invisible Blade swashbucklerogue?)

Ah Logic Ninja, my eternal foil! (At least on this bulliten board).

Yup, you're right. But as much as I enjoy making hugely powerful builds (your thread on the power cleric was particularly fun for me, btw), I try and avoid having to create new magical items to create my hugely powerful builds. When it works out and your throwing PC end up trip-killing half the enemies in most of the campaigns encounters, the other PC's and maybe the DM will accuse you of "cheating."

As unbalanced as the rules can sometimes be, they can be even more broken if you just start making new items up. (Which, pretty much every DM does from time to time).

[The White Knight]

I think making the bandolier the equivalent of a +1 weapon is fair--that way, +1 daggers from the bandolier are the equivalent of +2 weapons, etc.

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're trying to say here. If you mean to say that the bonuses from the bandolier and daggers should stack, you are in error.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

No, no. I mean the bandolier enchantment--"of weapon-holding" for example--should be the equivalent of a +1. Thus, if you wanted a bandolier that made daggers +1, it'd cost as much as a +2 weapon, but the daggers would be +1--the cost of Flaming or Returning, say.

[The White Knight]

Understood and agreed.

[Donsic]

I think that it would be pretty usfull and no more broken then the items i have our artificer make.

[selfcritical]

Ranged damage is ranged damage. IF two character want to be able to do ranged damage without having to be super worried about running out of ammo every two three rounds, I don't see why one of them should have to pay twice as much for equipment(with lower enhancement bonuses), as the other one. As it stand, if one were to pick up the players guide, and make two ranged combatant specialists, one a thrown weapon guy and one an archer, with the thrown weapon guy being a halfling( a race optimized for throwing stuff), by 8th level the archer will completely outclass the thrower. This is a balance problem. And i think fundamental differences out of core books should be a bigger influence on which rules should be tweaked than "what happens if the thrown master gets this?"

[MrNexx]

Ladies and Gentlemen, such a thing already exists.

In the Players Guide to Faerun, there are two gloves... The Gauntlets of Weaponry Arcane and the Glove of Taarnahm Vigilant. The first bestows upon any weapon the properties of being magic and silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. The second gives any melee weapon he carries the Throwing and Returning properties.

They're on page 123. I knew I'd seen something like this in a FR book.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Ladies and Gentlemen, such a thing already exists.

In the Players Guide to Faerun, there are two gloves... The Gauntlets of Weaponry Arcane and the Glove of Taarnahm Vigilant. The first bestows upon any weapon the properties of being magic and silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. The second gives any melee weapon he carries the Throwing and Returning properties.

They're on page 123. I knew I'd seen something like this in a FR book.

But it doesn't sound like they're any good if you want one that bestows +2 shocking icy burst or some other combination...

Do they list the possiblity of building such items off of those?

[MrNexx]

But it doesn't sound like they're any good if you want one that bestows +2 shocking icy burst or some other combination...

Do they list the possiblity of building such items off of those?

No, and looking at it, they're difficult to reverse engineer.