Does she need a 'nerf'?

[Zergrusheddie]

Howdy y'all. Our current group is a bit of an oddball with an all evil and 'monster' characters. There is the Vampire Drow Beguiler, the Drow Lich Mystic Theurge (Lich is from an item), a Vampire Drow Evoker Wizard, and a Ogre Half-Dragon Fighter. The Vampire thing was 'free'; like I said, it is a MASSIVELY oddball group. We are all roughly level 12 and the DM wants to seriously nerf the Fighter because he feels that she is too powerful. Her character (from memory but the strength is accurate):

Fighter 3
STR: 45 (18 Base + 10 Ogre + 8 Half-Dragon + 3 Book (random loot from a Banshee) +2 Size + 2 from levels + 2 item)
HP: ~100
Feats:
Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus Greatsword, 'Toughness' (1 HP per level), something else.
Attacks at:
+27/22 and deals 3d6+28
Saves:
Fortitude: 13 Reflex: 6 Will: 4
AC: 28

Now, the DM wants to move her into a 'Dracolich' with a fixed character set up. He feels that "she is way too powerful relative to the group" even though that the Evoker does more damage than her and I have been throwing out DC26 Confusions. The progression is basically a pre-assembled character. It is Undead, so her 22 Con does her no good and it increases in strength and becomes more and more Dragonlike as it progresses. At level 12, she would have:


Strength: 26 Base (34 with items)
AC: 28
10 feats (we are only using PH1, PH2, SRD, and Complete Arcane so she can't really put them to good use with Shock Trooper + Leap Attack)
Reflex: 7 Will: 11 Fortitude: 8
~82.5 HP

Basically, as she gets higher she gets larger, stronger, smarter, less dexterous, more Natural Armor Class, Full BAB, and the ability to Alter Form into a Dragon. I do not think that this is such a great idea as it is a set character progression; she couldn't become a character class since she would have to stay with Dracolich to reap any of the benefits. Considering she has paid for the Ogre and Half-Dragon, I think that she shouldn't be forced to give up all customization and have her hit points and strength reduced so heavily considering she min-maxed physical stats by reducing mental ones. The biggest thing that I do not like is the fixed progression as it gets rid of her options. What do you think?

Best of luck
-Eddie


P.S It may be hard to give a real good opinion because of the oddity of the group but try your very best.

[arguskos]

Uh, no. The DM isn't going about this well. He's trying to force a character that isn't hers down her throat? Have her channel that ogre and beat his head with a rock until he stops being an *******.

Or, if excessive violence isn't your thing (but really, who doesn't like some violence), sit him down and explain that if he wants to nerf her a little, RP her losing a few points of Strength, so she does a bit less damage. That... should be about it.

Oh, and mechanically? She looks fine.

[kamikasei]

How are the vampire and lich templates being handled - you say "vampire was free", do you mean it's not being accounted for in ECL? What about the lich, if that's item-granted is it part of the ECL?

Unless those casters are paying through the nose in levels for their templates, I have a hard time imagining how the DM could be concerned with an LA-laden melee character.

Could you describe just how these issues are being handled, to give us a clearer picture of the power level of the group?

edit: I hadn't even considered the actual stats or the proposed "correction" as I didn't see much point until the above was clarified, but looking again, I have to agree that a) saying "no, I don't like your character, play this premade one" is a poor DM move, and b) I don't see anything overpowered about the ogre - essentially, she's just got a very high strength, and is paying for it in class features, hit points, and saves; is it really so hard to note "okay, the melee powerhouse can put out a lot of damage when given the opportunity to hit things" when designing encounters?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The DM clearly has no sense of game balance. You have an entire party of powerful monsters with levels in powerful spellcasting classes who can bend reality to their wishes, then you have a completely one-sided character who's only good at one thing. Of course the obvious solution is to make that one character not as good at the only thing they're good at, so they end up not being good at anything at all. This will only accomplish making that character who's only good at one aspect of the game feel even more worthless and want to quit playing. Changing this character, especially forcing an arbitrary change with RP implications against what the player had in mind for the character, is not the right solution to the perceived problem. There is nothing wrong or overpowered with that character at all, if the DM was competent this character would not be a problem.

First of all, use multiple opponents per encounter, and don't group them up. Even low-CR monsters that only serve to waste the characters' actions will fulfill their purpose of making the battle last longer and feel more significant. Monsters that don't contribute any loot are particularly useful for this, such as dire animals which have been domesticated and trained to defend their owners. Animated Objects are low-CR but have quite a large chunk of HP. Mindless undead such as Zombies also make good meat shields for PCs to waste their time on.

Second, switch up the types of encounters a little bit. Don't make every monster stand toe-to-toe with the toughest PC. Give the monsters Flyby Attack, give them Spring Attack with Greater Invisibility or magical darkness, give them ranged attacks from a balcony across the room. Any monster that's survived long enough to be worth killing at that level should realize that the big ogre will smash them if they get close to it, but those skinny little elves in back are probably easy targets. At least attempt to play intelligently, rather than having one encounter after another run up and impale themselves on his sword.

Finally, if all else fails, give the monsters max HP. When I'm DMing I always give PCs max hp, and I give monsters anywhere from 3/4 of max per die to max. The PCs get a little better survivability, and the fights last a little bit longer and don't seem quite so easy.

[Gnaeus]

It does NOT need a nerf in the party you described.

[sofawall]

What is the DMs problem with the character, exactly? The high physical stats? Let's break it down: (This is going pretty in depth, and will take a while. Reader beware.)


Fighter 3 gives 3 BAB, Ogre 4 gives us 3. 45 str gives a +17 modifier. Power attack away the 6 BAB to be +12 damage, then 1.5*17+12 takes us to +37 damage.

45 str gives a +17 modifier, Weapon Focus gives a +1, Large gives -1, so attacking at +17/+12.

W/O Power Attack, that's a +25 damage and +23/+18. I don't know where you got your numbers, but w/e. Maybe the mystery feat gives crazy changes. (More likely, a +4 weapon.) (But why not put the stuff with Power Attack instead of w/o?)

Anyway, let's check out an Orc Barbarian. He starts with an 18 str, +4 orc, + 3 HD, +3 tome, +2 item. That's 30 str. A +10 modifier. Raging, this improves to 36, or a +13.

We'll assume a +4 weapon as appears to be the case above.

With 12 BAB, a +13 modifier and a +4 weapon, adding in +1 for weapon focus, we're looking at a +30/+25/+20. Seems... A bit higher...

Damage, now, lesse... With a +13 modifier, we can get a +23 damage, not too shabby. Let's check Power Attack, shall we?

Take away the BAB from the to-hit calculation, we have a to-hit of +18/+13/+8. Still better than the ogre.
Damage-wise, we have 24 from Power Attack, 19 from str and 4 from weapon, so a +47 to damage.
Power Attack
Ogre: +21/+16, Damage +41
Orc: +18/+13/+8, Damage +47

Normal Attack
Ogre: +27/+12, Damage +29
Orc: +30/+25/+20, Damage +23

The Orc seems as good, or maybe even better than the ogre. Maybe the ogre's bigger dice for the weapon would make a difference, maybe the reach would be a deciding factor.

Let's look somewhere else, shall we?

With a hit dice of d10 for the fighter and d8 for the ogre, we get 8 for first level, 13.5 for the next 3, and 16.5 for the fighter levels. That's a nice round 30 hp. Add Improved Toughness in there, you get 37 hp.

To get the 37 hp to 100, you'd need 63 extra hitpoints. That's a +9 con modifier. Ogre gives +4 con, Half-Dragon gives +2, so you have a +6 con. A +9 modifier needs a 28 con, so with a starting 18 and a +4 item, you could do it.

The Orc, on the other hand, has a d12 hit dice, and 12 of them. He gets 12 for the first dice and 71 for the others, giving him 83 hit points. With a starting 18, a +4 item and no racial bonus, that's a 22 con, or a +6 modifier. That gives him an extra 72 hp, bringing him to 155. Improved Touchness gives him 12 more, and when raging, this increases further to 203 Hp. Over twice the Ogre's.

So, to recap:

Ogre:
Less iterative attacks.
Wins slightly in damage... Unless Power Attacking.
10-ft Reach.

Orc:
More iterative attacks.
Wins slightly in to-hit... Unless Power Attacking.
Twice the hitpoints, better saves.


And remember, the Orc is matching and surpassing the Ogre without any optimization. Take away Improved Toughness and Weapon Focus, add Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper and Orc wins on all fronts but AC. Before even adding templates, like Lolth-Touched or Half-Minotaur.

Overall, if a simple Orc Barbarian is surpassing you, you shouldn't worry about being overpowered.

[Zergrusheddie]

How are the vampire and lich templates being handled - you say "vampire was free", do you mean it's not being accounted for in ECL? What about the lich, if that's item-granted is it part of the ECL?

Ok, this will need a brief history lesson. *crakcs fingers*

We were originally all Bugbears and the Mystic Theurge was a Drow. We found a Deck on Many Things and everyone aside from my Barbarian was sucked of their soul. The Mystic Theurge had already found an artifact that had already been attached to his soul. He woke up as a Lich and his companion thief was turned into a dried husk.

*fast forward a month*

The group had just finished a dungeon and we were sort of in a interdenominational prison thingy. The Warden said that he wanted a soul to let us go. The Wizard took the deal and when he became a Vampire, I decided what the hell and took the deal as well. I shouldn't have used the word 'free' as the Wizard and we are still unaware of what our new sire will have us do. The DM had obviously thought ahead of me taking the deal (Beguiler, so I like to keep an army of 'volunteers') and when I asked if I could raise Spawn he said, "Do you think I would allow you to have minions that drain levels to create more minions?"

So, replace the word free with "some bastard owns my soul!" But as Doc Holliday would say, "I coughed that up with my lungs, years ago."

The DM is using rules from the SRD to reduce LA and he has decided to just allow us to pay it as debt all upfront. He realized that as we got higher level, the LA was really killing the casters because we depend on each level more than the Fighter does.

Best of luck
-Eddie

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Uh, no. The DM isn't going about this well.

I agree. The party seems a little high powered for the level but I've seen worse. And I agree if anything is ecl suspect it's the spellcasters.

Your dm may be feeling that he went a little Monty Haul and he's trying to scale back a bit but this is not the right way.

If it was me, I would just hurl some opponents appropriate for your power level...other undead baddies, paladins, etc.

But since, it's not me, and assuming your group feels the same, then just bring this up with your dm. Ask him specifically what his problem is with the character. Is the pc throwing off his ability to create an appropriate encounter for the party? I can't see how but this may be the case. If so, then how about just a retcon of its stats rather than a complete overhaul?

Also, maybe your dm is finding it hard to challenge your party. If so, give him your perspective on the campaign so far and talk to him about the sorts of challenges you would like to face.

[kamikasei]

I see... so the casters don't actually have any LA, but have to put the next many levels' worth of XP towards buying off their debt before they can level any further? Does this apply to the Ogre too? I mean, if she's only got three levels of fighter, I'm assuming not...

So are we in fact talking about a party of twelfth-level casters with between +6 and +10 LA worth of abilities effectively for free? I mean, damn.

Drow 2/Vampire 8/Beguiler 2
Drow 2/Lich 4/MT 6 (I mean, without early entry tricks, this character shouldn't even be in Mystic Theurge yet should (s)he?)
Drow 2/Vampire 8/Evoker 2
Half-Dragon 3/Ogre LA 2/Ogre HD 4/Fighter 3

I guess the Ogre does have an edge in actual HD, assuming everyone's carrying their LA properly, but since apparently that's not the case for the casters, but it seems is the case for her...

[Eldariel]

Do you know why the DM thinks the Ogre is borked? Is he paying attention to what's actually happening in the combat, or who is throwing the most dice? 'cause if someone gets Confused, he'll be out of combat; doesn't matter who splatters his skull afterwards. Same with most other disabling spells.

It sounds like your DM simply isn't appreciating the capabilities of the rest of the characters, though great they may be. It may also be that the DM is intimidated by the kind of damage dealt in midlevels; I've met DMs under some idea that "The more hit points opponents have, the longer the fight will take", which is flawed simply because the more hit points opponents have, the more damage the team is dealing so the relative length of battle is about the same.


No, there should be no need for a nerf (unless there's a lot we're missing) and this all feels like a DM perspective issue.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Ok, this will need a brief history lesson. *crakcs fingers*

We were originally all Bugbears and the Mystic Theurge was a Drow. We found a Deck on Many Things and everyone aside from my Barbarian was sucked of their soul. The Mystic Theurge had already found an artifact that had already been attached to his soul. He woke up as a Lich and his companion thief was turned into a dried husk.

*fast forward a month*

The group had just finished a dungeon and we were sort of in a interdenominational prison thingy. The Warden said that he wanted a soul to let us go. The Wizard took the deal and when he became a Vampire, I decided what the hell and took the deal as well. I shouldn't have used the word 'free' as the Wizard and we are still unaware of what our new sire will have us do. The DM had obviously thought ahead of me taking the deal (Beguiler, so I like to keep an army of 'volunteers') and when I asked if I could raise Spawn he said, "Do you think I would allow you to have minions that drain levels to create more minions?"

So, replace the word free with "some bastard owns my soul!" But as Doc Holliday would say, "I coughed that up with my lungs, years ago."

The DM is using rules from the SRD to reduce LA and he has decided to just allow us to pay it as debt all upfront. He realized that as we got higher level, the LA was really killing the casters because we depend on each level more than the Fighter does.

Best of luck
-Eddie

Er..uh..huh..I see. First the la of vampires is their for a reason. You can make an army of spawn. Ok if your not doing that you still get a truckload of bennies. Regardless, the party could still be balanced in effective power in a typical dungeon encounter.

What I think you have though is less monty haul and more railroading. Not that the railroading has been a bad thing. But it seems your dm wants one big happy undead family. The real question is is this what your party and the player want? And if so, does the ogre player want to be a dracolich or some other undead?

[Zergrusheddie]

I agree. The party seems a little high powered for the level but I've seen worse. And I agree if anything is ecl suspect it's the spellcasters.

Your dm may be feeling that he went a little Monty Haul and he's trying to scale back a bit but this is not the right way.

If it was me, I would just hurl some opponents appropriate for your power level...other undead baddies, paladins, etc.

But since, it's not me, and assuming your group feels the same, then just bring this up with yoiur dm. Ask him specifically what his problem is with the character. Is the pc throwing off his ability to create an appropriate encounter for the party? If so, then how about just a retcon of its stats rather than a complete overhaul?

The thing is, she rolls REALLY well and does decent amounts of damage in melee. I got a quick spot check to notice that a statue in the room was alive. She shifted forward, did a full Power Attack Full Attack. At that time, she was +21/+21/+16 (I threw a Haste). She hit three times and did 9d6+120. She rolled well enough to auto-kill the poor Stone Golem.

I do not think he has ever played a game where the Big Stupid Fighter could punch out with as much force as her. He understands that we are a "high power" game and we have been fighting CR16 creatures constantly even though we are only level 12. I will say that this campaign has probably been my favorite campaign as of yet because the DM is extremely good at storytelling and because we are more powerful than the typical dudes.

[Eldariel]

You can tell the DM: "Welcome to the world of two-handed fighters." I know I was a bit shocked when a level 15 Frenzied Berserker one-shot charged a Balor in a test fight. It's also worth noting that the Haste is over 1/3rd of her damage output, so you're as much to blame as she is. Something else to point out.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

The thing is, she rolls REALLY well and does decent amounts of damage in melee. I got a quick spot check to notice that a statue in the room was alive. She shifted forward, did a full Power Attack Full Attack. At that time, she was +21/+21/+16 (I threw a Haste). She hit three times and did 9d6+120. She rolled well enough to auto-kill the poor Stone Golem.

I do not think he has ever played a game where the Big Stupid Fighter could punch out with as much force as her. He understands that we are a "high power" game and we have been fighting CR16 creatures constantly even though we are only level 12. I will say that this campaign has probably been my favorite campaign as of yet because the DM is extremely good at storytelling and because we are more powerful than the typical dudes.

Got it. So you got a big buff fighter which you are buffing even more (smart) and the dm is having a hard time matching strength for strength.

Well one that is a problem with the dm but you can help him.

First he can send opponents that play against your strengths for ex a paladin with smite evil and holy weapons. That is he has to bump up the level if he is going to go head to head.

Or he can have more finesse encounters, for example by using other undead to match your abilities or by having a very defensive fighter that can tie up the ogre but not be taken down in one round.

The way you can help is by stating the kind and level of encounters you would like to see. You can also tell him the kind of tactics you will typopically use, for hasting the ogre. Lastly if needed you can work with the dm to retcon the ogre and lower the stats without overhauling him, for ex retcon base str to 11 and remove the book and str drops by 10.

[sofawall]

The thing is, she rolls REALLY well and does decent amounts of damage in melee. I got a quick spot check to notice that a statue in the room was alive. She shifted forward, did a full Power Attack Full Attack. At that time, she was +21/+21/+16 (I threw a Haste). She hit three times and did 9d6+120. She rolled well enough to auto-kill the poor Stone Golem.

Orc Barbarian likes doing +18/+18/+13/+8, Damage +47. If all hit, 188 damage, but unlikely the last one would hit. Still, a possibility.

I do not think he has ever played a game where the Big Stupid Fighter could punch out with as much force as her.

So he's never played a game with an Orc Barbarian? I mean, an extremely basic Orc Barbarian is doing that much punch at that level.

[JeminiZero]

Do you know why the DM thinks the Ogre is borked? Is he paying attention to what's actually happening in the combat, or who is throwing the most dice? 'cause if someone gets Confused, he'll be out of combat; doesn't matter who splatters his skull afterwards. Same with most other disabling spells.

To be fair to the DM, the Beguiler, Theurge and Wizard could all be doing it wrong. The fact the wizard is an Evoker might hint as much.

What are the level breakdowns and strategies of the Beguiler, Theurge and Wizard anyway? It might be easier (and makes the players happier) to give them a boost by simply changing their strategy than it is to nerf the Ogre.

[Tsotha-lanti]

The SRD (Unearthed Arcana, actually) LA buy-off doesn't even apply to LA above +6, and you need to hit level 18 to be able to buy +6 down to +5. Similarly, the lich would be able to buy that +4 down to +3 at level 12, and that's it. Then there's that drow LA on top of it...

And no, no nerfing of the ogre necessary. The others, though...

The thing is, she rolls REALLY well

Ah, okay. Nerf the PC because the player has good luck with dice (a matter of perception and chance). Your DM is either stupid or malicious.

[kamikasei]

And no, no nerfing of the ogre necessary. The others, though...

If they are, as they properly should be, ECL 12 characters with 2 HD and CL 2, they seem pretty nerfed to me already, really...

(Wait a minute, they couldn't even have become vampires with so few HD!)

Yeah, the whole mess of template-stacking is still unclear and confusing as hell, and all we can really say is that the Ogre is in no way overpowered for ECL 12, although the others may be over- or under-powered for that level depending on how they're actually built.

[Eldariel]

The Beguiler is throwing around Hastes and Confusions, so seemingly innocously slaughtering everyone. The Wizard is evoking, but apparently pretty good at it; I wouldn't worry about the caster compartment's competence in general.

But the Ogre is pretty much indeed offensively in line with a standard Orc Barbarian of equivalent level. Orc Barbarian has far less Str in 18+4 race+3 levels+4 item+2 size+6 rage = 37 (vs. 45), meaning +13 vs. +17, but has an extra 5 points of BAB to throw around, and one point less size penalties meaning +1 more to hit for -6 damage. The damage difference comes out at about 4 points in the end (the Barbarian has Permanencied Enlarge Person, something Ogre can't benefit of as a Monstrous Humanoid; coincidentially, this would cut the +2 Size from the Ogre's arsenal as Half-Dragon doesn't increase size) with Power Attack in the mix, but the Barbarian has an extra Iterative to make up for that.


Putting both of these guys to make a Hasted Full Attack with a +3 Greatsword leads to Orc attacking at 12 BAB + 13 Str + 3 Weapon + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Haste - 1 Size = +29 vs. 7 BAB + 17 Str + 3 Weapon + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Haste - 1 Size = +28 for Orc's 3d6 + 19 Str + 3 Weapon damage vs. Ogre's 3d6 + 25 Str + 3 Weapon damage. Now, the Str of the Ogre looks to be 2 points too high, which would put it down at +27 and 3d6+24+3 Damage. Vs. AC 26, the Barbarian does 142.58 damage at PA -5, while the Ogre does 124.41 at PA -3; the iterative gives the Barbarian a relevant edge (if the Ogre's Str is indeed 45, then he gets 132.98 damage at PA -3, and if the Ogre is Huge, he deals 137.28 instead).

So I wouldn't say he's broken as he's outdone by a simple base class, although I do suggest you make sure the Str is calculated properly, since the adjustments for being Large are already factored into Ogre's stats and getting the extra +2 is just unnecessary.

[Tsotha-lanti]

If they are, as they properly should be, ECL 12 characters with 2 HD and CL 2, they seem pretty nerfed to me already, really...

(Wait a minute, they couldn't even have become vampires with so few HD!)

Yeah, the whole mess of template-stacking is still unclear and confusing as hell, and all we can really say is that the Ogre is in no way overpowered for ECL 12, although the others may be over- or under-powered for that level depending on how they're actually built.

Well, Zergrusheddie says they're roughly level 12; I don't see him actually confirming the levels to include the LA? I assume he means the others actually have 10-12 class levels? If they're fighting CR 16 enemies, there's no way some of them have 2 hit dice and ~10 hit points.

[kamikasei]

@Eldariel: Ah, yeah; I figured that the casters surely were better off than having only two actual caster levels, but I missed the mention of spells used to confirm it. That means they're less horribly built than they should be, sure, but who knows by how much? Surely they've not twelve full class levels, paying no cost for the template/race abilities?

(Oh yeah, and if you all started out as bugbears, what happened to your racial HD from there?)

Well, Zergrusheddie says they're roughly level 12; I don't see him actually confirming the levels to include the LA? I assume he means the others actually have 10-12 class levels? If they're fighting CR 16 enemies, there's no way some of them have 2 hit dice and ~10 hit points.

See, if the Ogre's got three fighter levels as stated, that does work out to ECL 12 for her. It seems clear the others are not properly adding up to ECL 12, but since we don't have a clear account of where their LA is going, I'm adding it up straight out of the MM to make clear just how badly it should be penalizing them and therefore how much of an advantage they're being given over the Ogre already.

If, say, the Vampire Drow really do have twelve class levels, that makes them ECL 22. I think that bears emphasis

[Zergrusheddie]

Well, Zergrusheddie says they're roughly level 12; I don't see him actually confirming the levels to include the LA? I assume he means the others actually have 10-12 class levels? If they're fighting CR 16 enemies, there's no way some of them have 2 hit dice and ~10 hit points.

The Dm wanted to run an unusual game, as did the players. The DM through out the whole LA thing and just used the basic rules from SRD to reduce LA by putting it as a debt. The Wizard and Beguiler are class level 12, while the Fighter is up to class level 3 or so. The Lich got off lucky as the DM let him count off his Drow dice for 9k (levels 3 and 6) and than count off his Lich dice as 30k (level 3, 6, 9, and 12) because he had already paid off the amount for Drow in a previous life. The Fighter has 4 levels of Ogre and 3 levels of Fighter and paying off a debt of 45k (3, 6, 9, 12, and 15 levels). I'm still not sure how the DM is going to handle the Vampire bit.

You are correct in saying that we have 10-12 class levels with the Fighter being the exception because of a larger debt and racial HD. I'm not a level 2 Beguiler throwing out Confusions.

Best of luck y'all and I thank every one of you for posting.
-Eddie

[kamikasei]

That makes sense Zergrusheddie, it is what I thought you were saying in my second post in the thread but I couldn't see how the casters had gained more than a handful of levels with such a crippling XP debt. It makes more sense if they only incurred the debt for lichdom/vampirism recently, having already gained plenty of levels. Geez, though, it's a horribly unfair system for the Ogre, who had all her racial baggage at the start, while the others get these templates that just slow down their leveling and push them into epic ECL while they already have as many class levels as the Ogre has ECL.

All the same, that just means there's even less reason to be concerned about the Ogre's power when the other characters are in sixth-level spell territory.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Right, so the ogre is ECL 12, and the others are ECL 16, 22, and 22. Half the party is epic level, and the DM is worrying about a 7 HD ogre melee combatant.

It boggles the mind.

And the DM is massively misusing or misunderstand LA buy-off.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

And the DM is massively misusing or misunderstand LA buy-off.

Until the spawning of the vamps, one of undead nature's wonders...

[Twilight Jack]

I recently played in a game in which a similar thing happened. The DM (who was not used to running 3.5 D&D) told us he was running a hi-power game, let us go to town at ECL 12 to start, and then was shocked at the characters with which we came up.

I played a human specialist Conjurer with Abrupt Jaunt, and the rest of the group included a Dread Necromancer with all the cyst spells, an Arcane Striking Warmage/Eldritch Knight with a scythe, a half-ogre Clericzilla (who used almost all his spellcasting to buff his melee), and a frickin' Monk.

Interestingly, it was the Monk and the Cleric who gave the DM the biggest conniptions. It's the numbers that get generated for damage. They're just a bit shocking if you're not used to them.

The DreadNec and I are sitting around going, "Wait, aren't we abusive too?"

On to the actual topic at hand: The ogre fighter is fine, and can be handled by even moderate battlefield control on the part of the DM's baddies.

A single swordsage with Counter Charge can put that ogre into a world of pain if he's got a group of allies ready to fall upon the big lug after the charge is ruined.

One problem I've noted that many DMs make (which makes melee classes significantly more powerful, mind you) is starting off many encounters with the characters already nose-to-nose with whatever they're fighting. When you get to make a full-attack on the first round of combat for catastrophic damage, you have likely ended the combat before it ever began. That's what it sounds like happened with that golem.

[ericgrau]

* Pulls up stock fighter build *. Her damage is 50% too high, roughly par with a level 15 character. Her AB is too high but having less attacks evens things out somewhat. Her HP and AC are par. That doesn't even count the advantages of large size and various things you can do with a high strength modifier. Ya, this needs nerfing because of the excessive damage output. Technically it would need major nerfage if she knows how to utilize a strength mod & size mod like that (tripping and breaking walls, for example). Evokers should have significantly more damage; they don't have nearly the HP or AC she does nor can they keep it up as long. But I'll agree that the DM should give her more choice in the matter of fixing the build.

I can't be 100% sure she needs nerfing since I don't know the details of the other party members. But they seem to be casters with a lot of LA & lost levels, so I bet that hurts them a lot. At the same time comparing casters & non-casters is like apples and oranges, so I don't see how anyone would complain other than the evoker. Even then he can mix non-damage spells with his damage spells and still have an important role.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Wait, are you using the DMG NPC fighter build as a baseline? That's a hilariously bad idea.

And did you read the thread? The ogre has 7 HD. The others have 12 class levels - that means they're ECL 14 (Drow LA +2) even before becoming undead!

[ericgrau]

Nope, I keep my own builds on hand. He said "We're all level 12", which I assumed meant ECL 12. If it means ECL 12+2=14 then the ogre is fine. But vampire and lich add LA too, so it seemed that ECL 12 is more likely. If they're level 12 on top of all those templates, then they're way too powerful compared to the ogre.

[kamikasei]

At the same time comparing casters & non-casters is like apples and oranges, so I don't see how anyone would complain other than the evoker.

I'm not sure any of the other players have complained:

He [the DM] feels that "she is way too powerful relative to the group" even though that the Evoker does more damage than her and I have been throwing out DC26 Confusions.

Seems like the DM decided she was doing too much damage, not that the amount of damage she was doing actually bothered or overshadowed any of the other characters.

I'm also curious as to what your "stock fighter build" consists of and how it compares to sofawall's example orc barbarian.