Help me be the Kool-Aid man!

[Quietus]

My buddy and I were talking about how we could make a build that could bust through walls, snap men in half, and generally just be a bull in a china shop - he's willing to work with me to make it happen, so I'm considering my options with regards to how to pull this off.

So, if we're looking at a build somewhere in the level 5-10 area, how can I get my Strength checks to break objects up as high as (in)humanly possible? We were both exhausted, so we couldn't come up with a lot, but we've got :

Strength increases (obviously), including rage/bull's strength/etc
Destructive Rage
Strength Domain granted power

Unfortunately, from there we devolved into hilarious tangents. So, what all did we miss? The target goal is having a decent chance of hitting DC 26, to break through a stone wall.

[Arakune]

My buddy and I were talking about how we could make a build that could bust through walls, snap men in half, and generally just be a bull in a china shop - he's willing to work with me to make it happen, so I'm considering my options with regards to how to pull this off.

So, if we're looking at a build somewhere in the level 5-10 area, how can I get my Strength checks to break objects up as high as (in)humanly possible? We were both exhausted, so we couldn't come up with a lot, but we've got :

Strength increases (obviously), including rage/bull's strength/etc
Destructive Rage
Strength Domain granted power

Unfortunately, from there we devolved into hilarious tangents. So, what all did we miss? The target goal is having a decent chance of hitting DC 26, to break through a stone wall.

Polimorph into a animated object?

[ImmortalAer]

Polimorph into a animated object?

Unfortunately I don't think there's many seven foot human-esque glass pitchers around.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Glass Golem Fighter6/Barbarian 14 with Dungeoncrasher.

[jcsw]

Sources allowed?

If its anything I'd go with

Goliath Barbarian 1/Fighter 2 With the Goliath Barbarian Racial sub and Dungeoncrasher.
Take extra rage and destructive rage.
Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Knockback are next in line, followed by EWP Spiked Chain if you can squeeze it in.

At ECL 4 you have a +17 to break down walls while raging.
You're still effective in combat (who wouldn't with that much stength?) with your knockbacks.

[ericgrau]

DC 26 is pretty easy with retries. You're probably thinking of a thin wall of stone spell. The typical dungeon masonry wall is DC 35, and other walls are stronger.

I'd try an ogre for the high strength mod, plus the large size is useful for other things. I think I recently did an ogre build that pulled it off.

[Quietus]

Sorry guys, seems I wasn't entirely clear.

I don't want to *be* a giant glass pitcher. I want to be able to bust through walls. I'm trying to find ways to directly increase my Strength checks to break objects; so far, the best way to do that without eating massive LA for a big strong base monster (I don't like using MM creatures) is looking like that Goliath sub level, and Destructive Rage. Neat, but there's gotta be a way we can go better.

Is there any feats that give you a bonus to Break checks outside of Destructive Rage? Items? Class features?

::Edit:: Also, the Ogre idea, while valid (+10 to Strength is delicious for these purposes), also means going outside the bounds of normal races, which I try to avoid doing. That being said, this world does have an NPC by the name of Tiny, a hulkingly large human who is essentially an Ogre Barbarian straight from the MM. If there's really this few options available, I might use that as the basis to do the same thing.

[kenjigoku]

Sorry guys, seems I wasn't entirely clear.

I don't want to *be* a giant glass pitcher. I want to be able to bust through walls. I'm trying to find ways to directly increase my Strength checks to break objects; so far, the best way to do that without eating massive LA for a big strong base monster (I don't like using MM creatures) is looking like that Goliath sub level, and Destructive Rage. Neat, but there's gotta be a way we can go better.

Is there any feats that give you a bonus to Break checks outside of Destructive Rage? Items? Class features?

I think that there is some abilities under Stone Dragon from the ToB:Bo9S that have things that are particularly useful for breaking stuff. I could be wrong though I am AFB. (If I am right you can either use a feat to take the ability, or you could MC warblade)

[ericgrau]

Ogre is only 2 LA and 4 HD to give +10 strength. Considering that class levels don't typically boost strength I'd go for it. OTOH I think there's some class out there that gives strength every level instead of BAB. If you can find out what that was I'd just take that instead.

[Quietus]

Ogre is only 2 LA and 4 HD to give +10 strength. Considering that class levels don't typically boost strength I'd go for it. OTOH I think there's some class out there that gives strength every level instead of BAB. If you can find out what that was I'd just take that instead.

War Hulk. Unfortunately, I don't have access to the Miniatures handbook.

[Burley]

Also, make sure you get your hands on some tights. White Tights.

[subject42]

I think there's a warforged prestige class (juggernaut?) that gives you a massive bonus to checks to break things.

[Quietus]

Also, make sure you get your hands on some tights. White Tights.

Actually, the way we've laid this character out, we thought it'd be hilarious for him to have been a spur-of-the-moment conscript into the army (we're currently in the process of fighting back a massive wave of troops from less desirable sources). As in, he's dressed in pajama pants with sheep on them, and a sleeping cap, which he calls his chapeau. *Just* these things. Heaven forbid anyone makes fun of him for them, because his mom made them for him, and he won't allow anyone to insult them.

Personality-wise, I'm seeing him as a devoted of Kord, who seeks challenges of his strength at every turn. And any time a challenge is thrown at him, he tries to find a way to get through it strictly with strength-based responses. To that end, War Hulk would have been great... if I could only access it.

[ericgrau]

Hmm, if you don't mind templates then half-dragon gives +8 strength for +3 LA. Half-minotaur might help too, but I dunno where that's from.

[Quietus]

I think there's a warforged prestige class (juggernaut?) that gives you a massive bonus to checks to break things.

Hm. If it weren't for the fact that I can talk the DM into letting me skin things differently (it's much less hilarious if I'm actually a construct), that wouldn't be that great... though as it is, the major limiting factor is again a lack of books. My group doesn't really pick up setting-specific material, since we run homebrews.

Hmm, if you don't mind templates then half-dragon gives +8 strength for +3 LA. Half-minotaur might help too, but I dunno where that's from.

True, hadn't thought about that. I may have to poke at Strength-boosting templates.. I'd really rather avoid having to do major reskinning if I can, but hey, I'd rather see this go into theoretical optimization and I can scale it back from there.

[ericgrau]

Good hope gives a +2 to ability checks. It's bard 3 or a 7 minute potion is 1k. A pale green ioun stone gives a +1 for 30k. Enlarge person (e.g., a potion, friendly caster, etc.) gives a size bonus to strength, as does some cleric spell I think. That's all I could find for items, other than the typical strength boosters.

I'm not a big fan of crazy optimization either which is why I suggested making him a monster. I don't know any other mild way to do it.

[Eldariel]

Best options:
-Dungeoncrasher Fighter [Dungeonscape] (take 6 levels for massive bonuses to just this, and other good stuff)
-Destructive Rage Barbarian (combine with above; Pharaoh's build was fine in this regard)
-Totemist (there are Soulmelds that directly improve your Str-checks; could be coupled with the above)
-Frenzied Berserker (well, logical continuation of Barbarian, more Str means better Str-checks)
-Cleric (well, it's no secret that casters are pretty good at pumping their Str; then again, I guess you aren't exactly looking for advice on how to abuse Polymorph, Righteous Might and the like)


The first two are especially focused on this. Can't argue it'd be against Frenzied Berserker's agenda either. Frankly, I'd probably go Dungeoncrasher 6/Barbarian 1/Frenzied Berserker 10/Barbarian +3. Purely mundane, breaks things. You gotta pick up Extra Rage, but c'est la vie.

EDIT: On level 7, when raging, you have +18 to Str-checks to break things before adding your Str! With starting 18, +2 item and Rage, that adds up to +7 Str for +25 to breaking things. In other words, you can take 10 to run through a wall.

[Bayar]

Make sure your DM will allow your warcry to be 'Get off my Kool-aid mother****er !'.

Other than that, go with a dungeoncrusher. It gives big bonuses to attacking objects, and walls are objects.

[Person_Man]

Perhaps something involving Riverine? It's a special material from Stormwrack. It's essentially water encased in a what’s essentially a Wall of Force. If you make something out of Riverine, it cannot be destroyed by anything except for Disintigrate and a few other high level spells. If you make armor out of Riverine, then half of the AC bonus counts as a Deflection bonus. A nice DM will let you substitute Kool Aid for water as the filling. Maybe a Warforged with Riverine Plating?

Also, one level of Marshal will let you add your Cha bonus to Sunder and Bull Rush checks. A few levels of Factotum will let you add your Int to Str checks.

[Quietus]

Perhaps something involving Riverine? It's a special material from Stormwrack. It's essentially water encased in a what’s essentially a Wall of Force. If you make something out of Riverine, it cannot be destroyed by anything except for Disintigrate and a few other high level spells. If you make armor out of Riverine, then half of the AC bonus counts as a Deflection bonus. A nice DM will let you substitute Kool Aid for water as the filling. Maybe a Warforged with Riverine Plating?

Also, one level of Marshal will let you add your Cha bonus to Sunder and Bull Rush checks. A few levels of Factotum will let you add your Int to Str checks.

Haha, that's a fantastically amusing idea @ the Riverine Kool-aid man thing, but this character isn't going to be a construct. Just acts like one.

So, Dungeoncrasher keeps coming up a lot. As I know it, it just gives you a bunch of damage when you bull rush a target into a wall; What else am I missing there? I don't have immediate access to Dungeonscape, but I believe the DM does.

EDIT: On level 7, when raging, you have +18 to Str-checks to break things before adding your Str! With starting 18, +2 item and Rage, that adds up to +7 Str for +25 to breaking things. In other words, you can take 10 to run through a wall.

So... 8 of that from Destructive Rage. A bunch of Strength bonuses... and either I'm missing something, or Dungeoncrasher gives +10 to breaking objects? Is that right?

[RTGoodman]

For a simple 10th-level build, you could go Ogre 4/(Spirit Lion Totem?) Barbarian 2/War Hulk 4, with the +2 LA from Ogre bought off at 6th and 9th level. You'd only have +5 BAB, but you'd have a whopping 38 Strength (+14 modifier) BEFORE items, raging, and all that. You also have just enough space to, by 20th level, go Ogre 4/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/War Hulk 10.

So, Dungeoncrasher keeps coming up a lot. As I know it, it just gives you a bunch of damage when you bull rush a target into a wall; What else am I missing there? I don't have immediate access to Dungeonscape, but I believe the DM does.

Dungeoncrasher replaces your 2nd and 6th level bonus feats, but it gives you the ability to do massive damage when you bull rush someone into a wall (6d6 at 2nd, 8d6 at 6th), a bonus to saves and AC vs. traps, AND a bonus to Str checks for breaking down walls (+5 at 2nd level, +10 at 6th).

With the Dungeoncrashing War Hulk build above, at 20th level you've got 53 Str WITHOUT items at 20th level (+21 modifier, I think), +10 from Dungeoncrasher, and then anything else you can add. That's a +31 before enhancements.

The DC for breaking through normal walls is HERE, and you can beat several of those right off the bat. Breaking through 5 feet of unworked stone is still gonna be difficult, though (DC 65).

[Eldariel]

So... 8 of that from Destructive Rage. A bunch of Strength bonuses... and either I'm missing something, or Dungeoncrasher gives +10 to breaking objects? Is that right?

As I said, "it does all other cool stuff too". On level 2, it gives you +5 to breaking objects. On level 6, that bonus is increased to +10. This is not usually brought up since the allure of the ACF is the Bull Rush-damage, but it's certainly fine for this. I might as well mention the third ability of the ACF too: +2 vs. traps on level 2, +4 on 6. Basically Trap Sense. And as I hopefully made sufficiently obvious, it is first bought on level 2 of Fighter and improves on 6; costs you both of those feats.

EDIT: Ninja! Also, I ninja'd someone!

[Person_Man]

So, Dungeoncrasher keeps coming up a lot. As I know it, it just gives you a bunch of damage when you bull rush a target into a wall; What else am I missing there? I don't have immediate access to Dungeonscape, but I believe the DM does.

You trade 2 Fighter bonus feats (2nd level and 6th level) to get it. The damage is ridiculous (8d6 + Str*3, IIRC). Multiply that by 3+ attacks (usually you need Knockback and Pounce/Free Movement to do this), and you can pretty much kill anyone in one round.

It's also pretty easy to abuse in various amusing ways. Knockback, Shock Trooper, touch attacks, Bloodstorm Blade, AoO combos, Flight (let's you Bull Rush enemies into the ground by positioning yourself above them), etc.

[Quietus]

Two feats for that, eh? Neat... and I personally think I'd rather go Goliath over Ogre, if I'm going to lead into War Hulk. I lose 6 strength, sure, but I keep my intelligence/wisdom, gain most the benefits of being overly large, I'm closer to an actual Human... and I get four more class levels. Delicious, delicious Barbarian levels.


So if I go Goliath, with LA bought off at 6th, I can get...

Goliath Fighter6/Barb4/War hulk10, with the Dungeoncrasher variant. Assuming a starting strength of 18, +5 from levels, +20 from War hulk.. I'm looking at 43 strength with that, which is a +16 mod. Add 10 from Dungeoncrasher, for +26. Then I enter a Rage (Which I get 2/day!) and get +36 instead... and this is before items. Nice.

Feat-wise, I'm looking at Power Attack and Cleave to enter War Hulk, Improved Bull Rush for the Dungeoncrasher variant... and I think I'll probably pick up Shock Trooper, since ... well, it's too obvious not to.

Question : If I bull rush a target into their friend, do they take dungeoncrasher damage, or does it have to be a stone wall?

::Edit:: Forgot to add the Goliath strength bonus; Increase all of those strength check numbers by 2, or 3 with the Goliath racial sub level.

Since this character would be showing up in-game somewhere around level 8. With 18 starting strength, +4 from Goliath, +2 from levels, that's 24; +7 mod. I've got Dungeoncrasher, so I'm walking around with a +17 mod to break things casually. With Rage, my strength goes up to 30 with the sub-level, for a +10 mod, +10 dungeoncrasher, and Destructive Rage, for a total of +28 to break things when I hulk out... not bad at all. And then levels of Warhulk past level 10 just make things get silly.

[RTGoodman]

I don't think you qualify for War Hulk as a Goliath - it requires size Large, which you aren't. (Powerful Build specifies when you count as a larger creature, and PrC prerequisites are part of it - feats and PrCs that allow Large size OR creatures with Powerful Build always specify.)

Of course, if you're using Mountain Rage (grow to size Large when you rage, Goliath RSL), then it might work, but I, as a DM, either wouldn't allow it or would only give you your War Hulk abilities when you raged.

[Quietus]

I don't think you qualify for War Hulk as a Goliath - it requires size Large, which you aren't. (Powerful Build specifies when you count as a larger creature, and PrC prerequisites are part of it - feats and PrCs that allow Large size OR creatures with Powerful Build always specify.)

Of course, if you're using Mountain Rage (grow to size Large when you rage, Goliath RSL), then it might work, but I, as a DM, either wouldn't allow it or would only give you your War Hulk abilities when you raged.

Mm, true. My DM can either be a total stickler for the rules, or can allow anything so long as it's not game-breaking, depending on his mood... any other good LA+1 or less large-size races out there with a good strength bonus, then?

It's worth noting that he was very keen on the idea of this character being a monk, too... so I may also end up trying to convince him to let me play a monk (possibly with vow of poverty, which should keep my optimization level in line with the rest of the party) and give up THEIR level 2/6 bonus feats for the Dungeoncrasher thing. Not RAW, but I might be able to shimmy that past him.

[Gralamin]

A Llothtouched (MM4 Template I believe) Race has +6 Strength and Con over what they initially had for LA +1.

I do not believe there are any LA +1 Large or larger races.

[Person_Man]

I think Half Ogre from Races of Destiny is LA +1 or +2. You can also be a lycanthrope or entomanothrope for +2 LA + applicable animal HD.

But IMO, you don't really need War Hulk. Half-Giant or Goliath Fighter 6/War Mind X (or anything that grants Expansion) works fine.

[Quietus]

I think Half Ogre from Races of Destiny is LA +1 or +2. You can also be a lycanthrope or entomanothrope for +2 LA + applicable animal HD.

But IMO, you don't really need War Hulk. Half-Giant or Goliath Fighter 6/War Mind X (or anything that grants Expansion) works fine.

Mm, true. It's just that ten levels of War Hulk add +10 to my "break stuff" checks. Meaning when I rage, and add the extra levels worth of strength, I'm adding 39, before items. If I went Vow of Poverty, that's +43 to strength checks to break objects when I'm angry... which isn't insignificant. Of course, without VoP, I could go Tome of Strength and +6 enhancement item for a total of... 18 (base) +4 (race) + 6 (goliath barb sub level) +5 (levels) + 5 (tome) + 6 (item) + 20 (War hulk). That's 64 strength, or a +27 modifier, to which I add 18 more (Dungeoncrasher/Destructive Rage, total +45) whenever I'm angry. +45 to strength checks to break things means that the only wall I CAN'T reliably break down is unworked stone 5+ feet thick.. so essentially, I can't break off miniature mountains at will. But even when I'm NOT angry, that's +32; That's a decent chance at anything that isn't stone, and that's going by the SRD's "Dungeons" page. My DM uses the Break DC's from ... the PHB, I think? In which case War Hulk would be entirely unneeded.

::Edit:: Half-ogre is +2 LA, sadly, or I'd just use that instead.

[quick_comment]

As mentioned before, stone dragon has several maneuvers that ignore hardness. If you get something with a slam attack, you could initiate the maneuvers with the slam