[4e] Dragonmarks

[Burley]

Am I reading these incorrectly, or can you take a feat to learn a bunch of rituals for free, plus some other good benefits, like a crazy technicolored tattoo?

Seriously, what did I miss? What's the catch?

[SadisticFishing]

You.. have to be in Eberron?

The Dragonmarks are one of my least favorite things about 4e. I was like "ooh, this one's strong! I might take that"... then read the rest.

Of the ... 15~ characters being played in games I'm in, I think only 1 is not seriously considering a Dragonmark.

Things that are plot related should not be so powerful.

Wait, there's rituals attached? :P That doesn't even effect anything about the overpoweredness >_< that's just fluff

[Oracle_Hunter]

This Dragonmark... what does it do?

I need to know more before I can scoff at its ridiculousness

[Panda-s1]

Am I reading these incorrectly, or can you take a feat to learn a bunch of rituals for free, plus some other good benefits, like a crazy technicolored tattoo?

Seriously, what did I miss? What's the catch?

I believe you can only ever have one at a time. Last I checked.

You.. have to be in Eberron?

The Dragonmarks are one of my least favorite things about 4e. I was like "ooh, this one's strong! I might take that"... then read the rest.

Of the ... 15~ characters being played in games I'm in, I think only 1 is not seriously considering a Dragonmark.

Things that are plot related should not be so powerful.

Wait, there's rituals attached? :P That doesn't even effect anything about the overpoweredness >_< that's just fluff

What's wrong with OP plot related items? I thought that was the point of artifacts?

And weren't 3.5 dragonmarks kinda the same? Okay so they weren't as powerful, but eventually you got some crazy spell-like abilities, hell the fact you even got some minor ones to begin with is pretty awesome for a feat.

[Panda-s1]

This Dragonmark... what does it do?

I need to know more before I can scoff at its ridiculousness

Dragonmarks are this sigil-type things that manifest on certain people in Eberron, tied to the Draconic Prophecy, or something like that. Each dragonmark manifests different abilities, like one is about communication, another about artifice, hence the Dragonmarked Houses in Eberron that provide different services across the land.

In 3.5, they were racially restricted, tiered feats that would give you spell-like abilities, eventually netting you higher level magic. In 4e they're not tiered or racial, and give you some kind of bonus, plus a bunch of different rituals (usually). They're kinda utilitarian, though, I mean they're nice, but I can't say they're OP. 'Course, I still haven't taken a look at all of them, so I may be wrong.

[RTGoodman]

This Dragonmark... what does it do?

"Dragonmarks are physical manifestations of the Draconic Prophecy. They have appeared on seven of Khorvaire's common races. They are more intricate than a birthmark and more distinct than a tattoo. There are twelve families of dragonmarks, originally there were thirteen, but no living creature on Eberron possesses the destroyed mark of House Vol. In addition to being a status symbol in Khorvaire the dragonmarks provide the bearer with magical talents. " [Source]

In 3.x, they were limited by race, but in 4E designers lightened up and realized that they should necessarily be limited by race since the Prophecy could, realistically, choose a Warforged or Half-Orc or anything else to help it along.

Mechanics-wise, I don't know exactly what each does (I'll have to wait until they update the Character Builder), but I think they give some utilitarian powers and maybe a few other boosts, and you can qualify for a House-based Paragon Path.

[skywalker]

And weren't 3.5 dragonmarks kinda the same? Okay so they weren't as powerful, but eventually you got some crazy spell-like abilities, hell the fact you even got some minor ones to begin with is pretty awesome for a feat.

When you compare feats between 3.5 and 4.0, you're not comparing apples to apples. In 3.5, a character got 7 feats over 20 levels. In 4.0, a character gets 18(!) feats over 30 levels. The opportunity cost for feats in 3.5 is so much higher, it's ridiculous. Therefore, the threshold for being overpowered in 4.0 is much lower. Because there are just so many more opportunities.

I don't think there was ever a time in 3.5 where I built a character and thought "damn, there aren't any feats that I really want to take..." I think that all the time in 4.0, especially with certain classes.

[Panda-s1]

When you compare feats between 3.5 and 4.0, you're not comparing apples to apples. In 3.5, a character got 7 feats over 20 levels. In 4.0, a character gets 18(!) feats over 30 levels. The opportunity cost for feats in 3.5 is so much higher, it's ridiculous. Therefore, the threshold for being overpowered in 4.0 is much lower. Because there are just so many more opportunities.

I don't think there was ever a time in 3.5 where I built a character and thought "damn, there aren't any feats that I really want to take..." I think that all the time in 4.0, especially with certain classes.

I get that feeling too, but 4e feats are more or less balanced against each other, or at least somewhat restrictive (i.e. only getting one multiclass feat). The general level of everything is slightly more powerful than in 3.5, so I can't really say that it's OP

[Burley]

Okay, on topic:
Here's an example of why Dragonmarks seem a little powerful to me. (I don't have the Eberron book with me, so, fill in the gaps if you can.)
There is a feat called Restful Healing in the PHB2. When you take a short or extended rest, any healing powers used before the next encounter automatically heal the maximum number of hit points possible.
There is a Dragonmark feat that does this exact same thing, but also you know (without monetary cost) I think 4 or 5 rituals, if you have the Ritual Casting feat.

Some of the Dragonmarks are like this. They are copy & pastes of other feats, with free rituals tacked on.
I think I remember reading one and thinking "That's ability looks like a multi-class feat, but it's not a multi-class feat." I don't remember anything about the context, as I was drinking and supposed to be listening to somebody talking to me.

[Sebastian]

Am I reading these incorrectly, or can you take a feat to learn a bunch of rituals for free, plus some other good benefits, like a crazy technicolored tattoo?

Seriously, what did I miss? What's the catch?

The rituals are free? I thought that you have still to pay for them. The excerpt of the mark of warding says that you can master certain rituals, it don't say that you can do it for free, or that you can cast them for free.

Mark of Warding (Dragon mark)

Benefit: Whenever one of your powers grants a bonus to a defense, increase that bonus by 1.

Whenever you mark an enemy, that enemy takes a –3 penalty to attack rolls for attacks that don’t target you instead of the normal –2 penalty.

You can master and perform rituals in the warding category and the Fluid Funds (page 118), Knock (PH 307), and Leomund’s Secret Chest (PH 307) rituals as if you had the Ritual Caster feat.

[Gralamin]

Each and Every Dragonmark is stronger then most feats. There is, however, a trade off to it.

1) Dragonmark's exist in Eberron Fluff only. You'll have to have a good reason to get one in a non-Eberron setting.

2) The DM can explicitly stop you from retraining them. I'd personally rule you could never retrain them outside of special circumstances, but this is still a pretty big problem for some builds.

3) You may only ever have one Dragonmark feat at a time.

So, unlike most feats, Dragonmarks are explicitly set in stone.

But each are better then any non-class specific feats close to it, for example, Mark of Detection. (Note the following isn't an exact quote, and is paraphrased a bit)

When you make a perception check, you make two rolls and use the higher result.
You can also use a perception check instead of Arcana to sense the presence of magic.
You can master and preform divination rituals, in addition to three other rituals listed

Okay, on topic:
Here's an example of why Dragonmarks seem a little powerful to me. (I don't have the Eberron book with me, so, fill in the gaps if you can.)
There is a feat called Restful Healing in the PHB2. When you take a short or extended rest, any healing powers used before the next encounter automatically heal the maximum number of hit points possible.
There is a Dragonmark feat that does this exact same thing, but also you know (without monetary cost) I think 4 or 5 rituals, if you have the Ritual Casting feat.

Some of the Dragonmarks are like this. They are copy & pastes of other feats, with free rituals tacked on.
I think I remember reading one and thinking "That's ability looks like a multi-class feat, but it's not a multi-class feat." I don't remember anything about the context, as I was drinking and supposed to be listening to somebody talking to me.

Mark of Hospitality is actually stronger then Restful Healing. Restful Healing only effects the person that takes it, Mark of Hospitality effects the whole group.

[NPCMook]

The rituals are free? I thought that you have still to pay for them. The excerpt of the mark of warding says that you can master certain rituals, it don't say that you can do it for free, or that you can cast them for free.

I think he meant received them for free, but reading it, it just means you can learn and use those rituals. You'd still need to buy a Ritual book, and the rituals along with the components.

[Elderac]

You can -perform- specified feats. You still need to pay component cost.

I believe (and I will rule it this way as a GM) you need to be of an appropriate level to perform the feats.

I believe that those feats can be peformed without being a ritual caster.

In 3.5, to get full benefit of a Dragonmark, you had to take 3 feats. In 4E, you only need one and like many 4E powers they get better over time.

I believe they are appropriate for Eberron, but like Spellscars, I don't think I would use them in my homebrew campaign.

[Artanis]

The rituals are free? I thought that you have still to pay for them. The excerpt of the mark of warding says that you can master certain rituals, it don't say that you can do it for free, or that you can cast them for free.

You are correct, you still have to pay for them. It says you can master them as though you had the Ritual Caster feat, not that you get them for free. Basically, part of a dragonmark is that you get a really really really tiny version of Ritual Caster. The only exceptions are where it explicitly says you get it for free. So while they are indeed more powerful than many feats, it is NOT because of giving a bucketload of free rituals.


Also, as to races:

Mechanically, the dragonmarks are no longer restricted by race. However, I recall seeing somewhere that if you aren't the "correct" race for the dragonmark, it's considered aberrant, and thus is liable to get you killed if one of the great houses finds out about it.

[Gralamin]

Also, as to races:

Mechanically, the dragonmarks are no longer restricted by race. However, I recall seeing somewhere that if you aren't the "correct" race for the dragonmark, it's considered aberrant, and thus is liable to get you killed if one of the great houses finds out about it.

I think your making a jump and considering it aberrant. Though a lot of time it would be reasonable to expect a house to not like you, and want to get rid of you. Their power is based on the exclusivity of their Dragonmarks. Without that, their Economic and political position is threatened. Thus it is perfectly reasonable to assume that, say, a Warforged with the Mark of Storm will draw the wrath of House Lyrandar quite easily.

[Kurald Galain]

1) Dragonmark's exist in Eberron Fluff only. You'll have to have a good reason to get one in a non-Eberron setting.

Actually, they're core. Expect many players to at least want them, even outside Eberron. Although yes, RPGA explicitly forbids them (but will likely print a player reward card that allows them anyway).

2) The DM can explicitly stop you from retraining them.
3) You may only ever have one Dragonmark feat at a time.

Neither is a big deal and neither is a balancing factor. It's simple power creep: if they're allowed, practically every character will want a dragonmark feat.

[Dragonmuncher]

Actually, they're core. Expect many players to at least want them, even outside Eberron. Although yes, RPGA explicitly forbids them (but will likely print a player reward card that allows them anyway).

How are they core? I thought they were only in the ECS.

Or do you mean the whole "In 4e, everything is core" mentality?

[Starsinger]

I just thought PHBs, DMGs, and MMs, were core, I didn't know it extended to supplements (AV, X Power) or Campaign Settings (ECS, FRCS)

[Gralamin]

Actually, they're core. Expect many players to at least want them, even outside Eberron. Although yes, RPGA explicitly forbids them (but will likely print a player reward card that allows them anyway).


Neither is a big deal and neither is a balancing factor. It's simple power creep: if they're allowed, practically every character will want a dragonmark feat.

Why should whether they are core or not have any effect on the ability to get them in a different campaign setting?

[Kurald Galain]

I just thought PHBs, DMGs, and MMs, were core, I didn't know it extended to supplements (AV, X Power) or Campaign Settings (ECS, FRCS)

I'm reasonably sure that all printed material is core, including Dragon magazine which technically isn't even printed. It's getting pretty meaningless, but it seems that WOTC wants as much of their stuff as possible allowed in as many games as possible. Of course, that encourages people to buy books

[Yakk]

When you make a perception check, you make two rolls and use the higher result.

This is quite comparable to skill focus: perception.

Math:

Spoiler

Show

1-(1-P)^2 ~ (P+.15)
1-(1-2P+P^2) ~ (P+.15)
2P-P^2 ~ (P+.15)
P-P^2 ~ .15
-P^2+P-.15 ~ 0
They are equal @ [-1 +/- sqrt(1-.6)]/-2
They are equal @ 1/2 +/- sqrt(.1)
They are equal @ 0.816 and 0.184

So if you need a between 5+ to a 17+ to succeed, reroll wins -- if you need a 18+ or better a 4+ or lower, skill focus wins.

Skill focus is, however, a rather weak feat.

You can also use a perception check instead of Arcana to sense the presence of magic.

This is relatively minor fluff.

You can master and preform divination rituals, in addition to three other rituals listed

Also relatively minor.

But between the above, it does accumulate.

[Alteran]

I'm reasonably sure that all printed material is core, including Dragon magazine which technically isn't even printed. It's getting pretty meaningless, but it seems that WOTC wants as much of their stuff as possible allowed in as many games as possible. Of course, that encourages people to buy books

Not exactly. It's listed as "Eberron" instead of "D&D Core". However, it's news to me that the AVs, X Powers and etc. are core. I thought it was only the PHBs, MMs, and DMGs, since they say "core" on the front as opposed to "accessory". I don't know if Dragon Magazine is core, but the printed compilation is.

Really though, core means nothing to me now. It's just a word. If Wizards wants me to buy books I don't want, they'll have to be cleverer than that.

[Asbestos]

I'm reasonably sure that all printed material is core, including Dragon magazine which technically isn't even printed. It's getting pretty meaningless, but it seems that WOTC wants as much of their stuff as possible allowed in as many games as possible. Of course, that encourages people to buy books

I believe that everything BUT campaign setting specific stuff is core.

This runs into problems with some classes and races however. I fully expect an 'origins' article for using Kalashtar and Changelings in FR (much like the similar one for using Genasi in Eberron and Warforged in FR)

[SadisticFishing]

Mark of Warding is ridiculous, as is Mark of Healing. Neither is acceptable, at all, from a balance perspective.

The rest are rather ridiculous too, ALL of them, but those two are just.. what the hell.

This isn't power creep, it's.. a power EXPLOSION, and one that is unacceptable because they require FLUFF. This is the same thing as Righteous Rage of Tempus, albeit... a bit less powerful, but now virtually every non-Striker is going to want one of those, and even a lot of the strikers!

[Kurald Galain]

It's listed as "Eberron" instead of "D&D Core".

Okay, so it's not core. I wish WOTC wouldn't change the meaning of such terms Nevertheless, my point stands in that I expect numerous players that do not use Eberron to ask their DM to allow these feats, and that I think that was an intentional move on WOTC's part.

Within Eberron, I suspect nearly every wizard wants the mark of storm, and every rogue wants the mark of stealth or whatever it's called.

[Panda-s1]

Okay, so it's not core. I wish WOTC wouldn't change the meaning of such terms Nevertheless, my point stands in that I expect numerous players that do not use Eberron to ask their DM to allow these feats, and that I think that was an intentional move on WOTC's part.

Within Eberron, I suspect nearly every wizard wants the mark of storm, and every rogue wants the mark of stealth or whatever it's called.

I highly doubt that. DMs aren't stupid (usually), and dragonmarks are very, very fluff centric, i.e. it's really hard to justify them outside of Eberron. Same thing with spellscarred in FR. Yes I can put it into any setting, but then I have to be creative about it and make up a similar thing to the Spellplague in order for it to make sense in my setting.

Edit: WotC does want you to buy the EPG, but people are really gonna buy it for the artificer class and new races. WotC will probably make some kind of material for Dragon that helps you incorporate the races into other settings, but dragonmarks are probably staying in Eberron.

[Burley]

Mark of Hospitality is actually stronger then Restful Healing. Restful Healing only effects the person that takes it, Mark of Hospitality effects the whole group.

What do you mean it only effects the person that takes it? The example in the feat specifically says that the cleric uses healing word on a target and heals him auto-max-tactically.

I know WotC made just about everything core. Forgotten Realms (setting) races and classes get support in other books. I don't know if Ebberon will be like that, since they released a full Arcane class right after Arcane Power. (Arcane Power 2, here's hopin'!) Anyways, since the books that have been confirmed to be core (AV, X Power, etc) have support for setting specific stuff, I verture to say that everthing will eventually be considered core.

I highly doubt that. DMs aren't stupid (usually), and dragonmarks are very, very fluff centric, i.e. it's really hard to justify them outside of Eberron. Same thing with spellscarred in FR. Yes I can put it into any setting, but then I have to be creative about it and make up a similar thing to the Spellplague in order for it to make sense in my setting.

There's not much reason to not let them in, though. How hard is it to say that the spellplague was confined to only a small area and didn't last forever? Or that dragonmarks exist, but they are very special things, or even tribal things?
I have a player who is playing a Half-elf Bard, whose reason for adventuring is trying to figure out what the spellplague is doing to him. It's the Thunderspire Labrynth module. Not hard to just say: "Okay. You can take the feat." Fluff is fluff and doesn't have to change your entire setting to exist.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

What do you mean it only effects the person that takes it? The example in the feat specifically says that the cleric uses healing word on a target and heals him auto-max-tactically.

While I don't have the relevant book, I think he's saying that Restful Healing lets the person with the feat auto-max heal, while the dragonmark lets any healing by anyone auto-max heal.

[Burley]

They both say when you use a healing power during this time, you heal max-possible. It doesn't matter if you use the power on yourself or an ally.

[Fixer]

I don't think there was ever a time in 3.5 where I built a character and thought "damn, there aren't any feats that I really want to take..." I think that all the time in 4.0, especially with certain classes.

Vow of Poverty, trying to choose your 18th level exalted feat.

Otherwise, I agree with you entirely. :)