Warlocks: Are they incredibly broken, and can they be fixed?

[Jergmo]

They just seem...ridiculous to me. Am I wrong? If I'm right, can they be made less overpowered?

[AmberVael]

They just seem...ridiculous to me. Am I wrong?

Yes.
That's really all there is to it.

It looks nice to have long lasting powers and infinite uses, but the fact is that the lack of potency and variety more than makes up for it. Warlocks are far from overpowered.

[Frog Dragon]

Actually, they aren't broken at all. Significantly under the standard casters and such. Sure they have every power of theirs at will, but they are severely limited in what they get and the effects never hit those of really high spell levels. They simply don't have that much power or versatility to give even if they can do their thing indefinitely.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

This is a common perception shared by many who first see the "at-will" abilities. That asid, the Warlock is actually a very nicely balanced class, falling (IMHO) somewhere approximately around the Rogue, depending on the builds.

It's at-wills aren't nearly as potent as you would expect, although at around level 5-7 the Warlock really seems to shine. Don't worry to much though...it's a good class, but not overpowered by any means, especially once other classes break out the big guns.

[Kurald Galain]

The best way to fix the warlock is by giving him one invocation at each level, instead of every other level. That brings him more on par with the rogue, bard, and barbarian (and still behind the primary casters, of course).

Surprising answer, no?

[HamsterOfTheGod]

A warlock, a monk and a favored soul walk into a bar. The bartender goes "You're kind gets served."

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

It also depends on what you do with it. I am currently working a Gnome Warlock (Pathfinder / Unearthed Arcana rules, Spelljammer universe, looooooong story [it had something to do with a previous character of mine destroying the Faerun sphere])

Garet Yasur - CN Male Gnome Warlock 5 / Corrupted Spirit 10 (Modified from 'Enlightened Spirit') / Hellfire Warlock 3 The levels are kinda sprinkled in here and there...

He is making heavy use of Use Magic Device, Craft (trapmaking), Empower (Sp) and Quicken (Sp) for the blasts. He is also infusing his eldritch hellfire blast into "traps" that are being made. He is surprisingly stealthy.

Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are your friends as a Warlock. You won't have a ton of HP, so make good use of Eldritch Spear (250' range with blast) and if they get too close, Eldritch Glaive. Fell Flight gives you a flying speed, with which you can take Flyby Attack or Shot on the Run if you can squeeze it in.


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Now playing: Audioslave - Bring Em Back Alive
via FoxyTunes

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

The best way to fix the warlock is by giving him one invocation at each level, instead of every other level. That brings him more on par with the rogue, bard, and barbarian (and still behind the primary casters, of course).

Surprising answer, no?

I like that idea, very much. Also may allow the invocation levels (Least, lesser, etc.) progress faster.

[lsfreak]

Less utility than any primary caster (especially other arcane casters). Significantly less damage output than an ubercharger, a ToB character, or even a well-built rogue. They can fill multiple roles in the party - party face, archer, arcanist, itemcrafter - but can't fill any of those but maybe itemcrafter (when artificer is banned) as well as another character.

So no, they're not broken. If anything, they're a little on the weak side as-is, fit well for dipping 1 or 4 levels but not really all that great all the way through. I'd up the number of invocations they know and homebrew some more interesting invocations in order to make them a bit more powerful.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

So no, they're not broken. If anything, they're a little on the weak side as-is, fit well for dipping 1 or 4 levels but not really all that great all the way through. I'd up the number of invocations they know and homebrew some more interesting invocations in order to make them a bit more powerful.

I wouldn't say that. They're about as multiclass-friendly as the average caster(read:not at all), but they don't have nearly as many good PrCs. There's a couple of the dual-progression Warlock ones that are decent, but most of the time you either go Warlock 1(1 Least Invoc and EB 1d6) or Warlock 20.

Even Hellfire Warlocks, the best damage output builds for the class, only deal 14d6(49) per hit, and they burn a point of Con doing so(though there are mitigators for that). Compare to a straight Rogue, who deals 10d6+20+Wep+Wep enhancement+Str(70, easily).

[Tengu_temp]

A warlock, a monk and a favored soul walk into a bar. The bartender goes "You're kind gets served."

I can't believe there are people who consider favored souls to be on the same level of power (or lack thereof) as monks and warlocks. They're full casters!

As for warlocks, compare a typical warlock to a typical archer of the same level. The archer will deal much more damage, and we all know how unoptimized archers are when it comes to doing damage beyond the lowest levels.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There are ways to optimize Warlock for damage, such as going Warlock 9/ Hellfire Warlock 2/ Legacy Champion 9 to deal 28d6 Eldritch Blasts. That's no better than a single-classed Warlock for half the build and only gets really powerful in high-level play when other characters get 7th-9th level spells. Luckily, Warlocks get UMD and can even take ten on it, so they can at least pretend to be as powerful as a true spellcaster though it can get expensive. I've found that the best use for Warlock is to spam debuffs every round, such as Blinding Eldritch Chain, and focus on boosting your DCs such as with Ability Focus and Fey Power. Glaivelocks are also quite powerful as melee damage dealers, but they don't get the armor proficiencies of other melee classes or the defensive spells of a gish.

[SilverClawShift]

I'm playing a warlock in my current campaign. I've taken "Extra Invocation" at every possible level, I have bracers that give me extra invocations, and my eldritch blast is stronger than a normal warlock of my level.

I STILL find myself wishing I had more versatility at my disposal, and our multi-class gish who's not optimized at all can make the damage my blast deals look like I'm lobbing softballs at the enemy.

It's a fun class, and it's not a pushover, but it's not really all that remarkable in terms of sheer power.

[Gnaeus]

In the case of the warlock, here's how you check...

Make a level x warlock. Then make a level x fighter with archery feats. Spend about 1/2 the fighters Wealth by level on his bow and ammo. Pick a couple of monsters of that challenge rating, look at their defenses (AC, touch AC, SR and DR). See how many rounds of uninterrupted shooting it takes to kill them. Notice how the archer is usually faster. Warlock has more utility than the archer, but archer has better hp... Yes, Warlock will be comparatively better against monsters with low touch AC, high AC, no SR and damage resistance, and the opposite for the archer.

So, the warlock takes up the same party role as the archer. Not quite as well, but with marginally better utility.

Now do the same thing with a level x specialist wizard where x is greater than 5 or 6. This can be a blaster wizard, or one with lots of SoDs, either way. Now divide the wizard's spells per level by 4 (because he has to face 4 challenges per day.) Let the wizard cast all his buffs with durations longer than 1 hour, and repeat challenge above. Pick good spells for the wizard, which target the monsters vulnerabilities, because the wizard picked his spells for that day with some idea of where he is, and chooses the best of his spells memorized for each combat. Again, the wizard will usually be faster. The wizard is comparatively worse on days with more than 4 encounters, better on days with 1-3. Most campaigns I have seen are more likely to have less than 4 encounters per day than more. The wizard has more utility than the warlock, because he can pick his spells to the needs of the day.

So the warlock takes up the same party role as the blaster wizard. Not quite as well, with worse utility.

So...Broken?

[BRC]

It goes like this
Warlock: HA, I can cast Baleful Polymorph at-will!
Wizard: Sorry, what was that, I was too busy having been able to do things that are far more awesome for the last four levels.

[Oslecamo]

As for warlocks, compare a typical warlock to a typical archer of the same level. The archer will deal much more damage, and we all know how unoptimized archers are when it comes to doing damage beyond the lowest levels.

Yes, but the warlock can become invisible, or destroy the archer's bow, or climb the cave's walls to remain out of the melees range, or summon tentacles from the ground to literally rape the archer, etc, etc

Plus, item crafting. Warlocks can craft ANY item. There's all the versatility you may ever want. This, combined with the take 10 in UMD checks, makes them more than able to hold their own weight in the party, unless you're playing with an incantrix of the 7 veils, planar sheperd of dreams and Mr roboto.

I don't understand why all the warlock hate. Sure they're not fullcasters, but with a little optimization and creativity fullcasters are the only thing wich will actually be above them.

Also to those who claim that archers in D&D are the suckorz, if you know what you're doing they can actually slaughter the best melee

[HamsterOfTheGod]

I can't believe there are people who consider favored souls to be on the same level of power (or lack thereof) as monks and warlocks. They're full casters!

Rule of funny: you need three things to walk into a bar.

Besides, neither the sorcerer nor the flavored sould is in The Big 5 for a reason.

[AslanCross]

Consider the following:
-A Warlock can do 3d6 damage to one target with his eldritch blast at Lv 5, all day long, from 60 ft away (longer if he has Eldritch Spear).
-A Wizard can do 5d6 damage to multiple targets with fireball at level 5, from 600 feet away, as many times as he can prepare it.

-At level 5, a Warlock has a grand total of 3 invocations, including blast shapes and eldritch essences, and it takes a feat to add an extra invocation.
-At level 5, a Wizard has 11 spells above Lv 0 plus all the Lv 0 spells, not including anything he may have learned from scrolls. It just takes him gold and some time to learn spells.

Even if the Warlock can do all day long, the Wizard is still better at its most "suboptimal" strategy, which is blasting, and can do other things on the side that will ultimately be much more helpful to the party.

The Warlock is further hampered by his rather pathetic skill point gain (since he's not intended to have high Int like the Wizard).

That said, I love the Warlock. He can really shine with UMD and wands, and is really quite flavorful.

[Kurald Galain]

There are ways to optimize Warlock for damage, such as going Warlock 9/ Hellfire Warlock 2/ Legacy Champion 9 to deal 28d6 Eldritch Blasts.

It is highly dubious that Legacy Champion works that way. Just FYI.


At any rate, just because a well-played wizard is more powerful doesn't make the warlock a bad class. They're also very easy to play, unlike wizards.

[lsfreak]

-snip-

Yes, you can craft ANY item. That's assuming you take the appropriate craft feats, have the downtime, and don't have an artificer doing essentially the same thing for even cheaper and not taking up any party time to do it. It's a strong point in certain campaign types, not all-around.

Yes, warlocks can do other things than blast. But they're not all that outstanding at it. It's not warlock hate, it's just a fact that they're less versatile than another caster. They're a pretty well-built class with a very good mechanic that could use a little help in the face of ToB and full casters (unless maybe if you go Legacy Champion).

Also, Sstoopidtallkid: I was referring to 1-level dips as a party face for the +6 to social skills or a 4-level dip for take-10 on UMD combined with things like constant see invisibility, the +6 to social skills, and a bonus on all X saves. It's a fairly decent dip for a skillmonkey/party-face character. The dual-progression warlock/caster classes in Complete Mage are pretty good too.

[GreyMantle]

Warlocks can be really fun to play, but they tend to be pretty unimpressive mechanically.

The solution I use is at http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t...er=asc&start=0. (ignore frank's version as it was never finished, but toward the end of the page cielingcat made a neat warlock variant).

The spherelock uses the casting system of spheres from the Tome of Fiends, which actually gives warlocks level appropriate abilities. I still let warlocks learn a number of invocations equal to their Charisma modifier, because spamming the shatter invocation is really really fun.

If you want to use the WotC version, having EB equal to warlock level helps a bit.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I vastly prefer the Warlock to the Wizard in nearly any setting, simply because they aren't godlike from start to finish.

They are strong, yes, and they have staying power. These are good traits to have in a base class. But they can't even begin to spit at a Batman Wizard, or typical CoDzilla, or even an Artificer or Archivist.

One cheezy trick to do is to dip two levels of Chameleon for the shifting feat. This plus the level 12 Warlock ability means they can make literally any non-artifact item in the game with trivial effort (although it still takes an expenditure of xp and gold).

Hellfire Warlock is... meh. Rawr, it can do damage, but not nearly as much as even a standard Charger build (Power Attack + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper + Pounce). Even with Glaive, it doesn't begin to compare.

Warlocks can be really fun to play, but they tend to be pretty unimpressive mechanically.

The solution I use is at http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t...er=asc&start=0. (ignore frank's version as it was never finished, but toward the end of the page cielingcat made a neat warlock variant).

The spherelock uses the casting system of spheres from the Tome of Fiends, which actually gives warlocks level appropriate abilities. I still let warlocks learn a number of invocations equal to their Charisma modifier, because spamming the shatter invocation is really really fun.

If you want to use the WotC version, having EB equal to warlock level helps a bit.

While an interesting concept, I don't approve of getting an entirely new 'sphere' every level. In fact, I'm not sure if 12 spheres (new sphere every time a current Lock gets a new invocation) is balanced. That's a LOT of stuff to do, making them exceedingly flexible, and some of those powers on those lists are pretty broken.

I've tried to build some base classes to replace the druid/cleric/wixard/sorcerer/bard based on the invocation system. Cleric and Wizard have one invocation per level, but 1/2 BAB. Druid and Bard have standard lock invocation advancement at 3/4 BAB. None of them get broken stuff like Divine Power.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Also, Sstoopidtallkid: I was referring to 1-level dips as a party face for the +6 to social skills or a 4-level dip for take-10 on UMD combined with things like constant see invisibility, the +6 to social skills, and a bonus on all X saves. It's a fairly decent dip for a skillmonkey/party-face character. The dual-progression warlock/caster classes in Complete Mage are pretty good too.

I know, I just can't see dipping more than one level of it. The Least Invocations are good, but you don't gain enough of them IMHO to justify losing other class features for mor than one level. I could understand Warlock 1, or Warlock 20, but not Warlock 4.

[Starbuck_II]

Wait, Warlock 6 grants all day Flight. That is pretty Nifty.

[Tengu_temp]

Wait, Warlock 6 grants all day Flight. That is pretty Nifty.

Yeah, infinite flight and invisibility are the most fun aspects of warlocks - but, while they are fun, they don't actually make them very powerful.

[scsimodem]

I've actually played a default, 3.5 warlock from 1 to 20, and, just like any other class, you just have to play to the strengths. Warlocks are a one trick pony, so make sure it's a damn good trick and take advantage of the fact that you can switch out invocations when you level (get rid of one that's proven useless). When I got to high levels, we spent most of our time in the underdark, so I dropped eldritch spear, since my warlock darkvision only went out to 60 ft. However, I could defeat even magical darkness to 30 ft. with another invocation, so I took the one that creates a globe of magical darkness. Then, even on the surface, I was awesome. There's also the acid one that negates SR and only pays attention to acid resistance.

Well, I seem to be rambling a bit, but here's the short of it: When all you've got is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail, so when you get one of your precious few invocations, take one that's as flexible as possible, then try to pigeonhole every situation into be a 'nail.'

Also, get scribe scroll and start making all kinds of neat crap to use when you just can't solve the problem with your hammer.

[penbed400]

coolest build I've seen so far with a warlock was an elf warlock 10/dashing swordsman 10. Actually works out in an amazing and witty way. So far our group has had lots of fun with it. Especially since he got this familiar, I don't remember how he got it. Maybe he dipped a class or something since I don't see familiar as a Warlock's class set. But its a pig, he named him piggay and is commonly used in his puns in order to get the bonus to damage for Dashing Swordsman. It's also a large round of facepalms and deep sighs whenever piggay gets mentioned at the table as he usually spins off going:

"PIGGAY! Destroy them, we shall certainly.....fry their bacon hmmmmmm....*wheeze with each breath*"

[Gnaeus]

Yes, but the warlock can become invisible, or destroy the archer's bow, or climb the cave's walls to remain out of the melees range, or summon tentacles from the ground to literally rape the archer, etc, etc

Plus, item crafting. Warlocks can craft ANY item. There's all the versatility you may ever want. This, combined with the take 10 in UMD checks, makes them more than able to hold their own weight in the party, unless you're playing with an incantrix of the 7 veils, planar sheperd of dreams and Mr roboto.

I don't understand why all the warlock hate. Sure they're not fullcasters, but with a little optimization and creativity fullcasters are the only thing wich will actually be above them.

Also to those who claim that archers in D&D are the suckorz, if you know what you're doing they can actually slaughter the best melee

I don't think anyone is hating on the warlock. We are:
1. pointing out that it is not overpowered in normal campaigns.
2. Not as good at its primary role (standing in the back and shooting things) as comparable, more common classes. Thats why we are comparing it to wizard and archer. If the poster had mentioned a glaivelock, I would have compared it to classes that outperform it in the melee damage role, like Ubercharger or TWF rogue.

Anyone interested in playing a warlock should know these things. Can a warlock contribute to a party...Absolutely. Heck, can an archer contribute to a party...Yes. But you need to know what you are getting into before you play those builds.

And it isn't about whether the warlock can beat an archer in a fight... That is usually irrelevant. More important is the level of hurt that they can put on commonly encountered monsters, and that comparison goes to the archer most of the time.

[AmberVael]

I don't understand why all the warlock hate. Sure they're not fullcasters, but with a little optimization and creativity fullcasters are the only thing which will actually be above them.

I don't think anyone is hating on them- on the contrary, I believe there is a very large portion of people who enjoy the class, but simply recognize that it is most certainly not overpowered.
Can it be good? Yeah.
Fun? Hell yeah.
Is it a full caster? ...no. Not at all.

[SoD]

Now do the same thing with a level x specialist wizard where x is greater than 5 or 6. This can be a blaster wizard, or one with lots of SoDs, either way. Now divide the wizard's spells per level by 4 (because he has to face 4 challenges per day.) Let the wizard cast all his buffs with durations longer than 1 hour, and repeat challenge above. Pick good spells for the wizard, which target the monsters vulnerabilities, because the wizard picked his spells for that day with some idea of where he is, and chooses the best of his spells memorized for each combat. Again, the wizard will usually be faster. The wizard is comparatively worse on days with more than 4 encounters, better on days with 1-3. Most campaigns I have seen are more likely to have less than 4 encounters per day than more. The wizard has more utility than the warlock, because he can pick his spells to the needs of the day.

...you've just given me the best mental image ever.


Also on the 'nail' idea; +11 from me. I'm DMing a campaign where one of the players is a CN Teifling Warlock (with 18 cha [I knocked away the Teiflings -2 cha]). She's recently gotten a bunch of dull grey ion stones. Her solution? Throw one of them at an opponent, and it flies around the opponents head. As the opponent thinks WTF dude? she speaks a single sylable of the Dark Speech(TM) and it shatters. As that opponent is was considered 'holding or wearing' the ion stone, they need to make a fortitude save or be dazed and deafened. Or, alternatively, she's in a situation where she needs to distract information from someone. She holds up a glass, throws it in the air, and shatters it, sending fragments of glass everywhere. Then, she picks up another glass, and wedges it in the 'torturee's moth for a few seconds. Remove it, and see if he'll talk. If not, shove it back in, and shatter it. Get party cleric to CMW. If the pain from that one didn't work, shove another glass in, uh, another orifice.