[4e] - Scry and Die (Well, Sorta)

[Shadow_Elf]

So, today we were looking at the EPH and at magic items and the new rituals. Then, it came up that the level 30 feature of the magister is really cool. And then, in a random train of though, we came up with this:

Wizard/EPH Truenamer/Magister, 30.
Warlord/Battle Captain/Demigod 30.

Lets kill Demogorgon without taking damage! Yay!

Step 1: Observe Creature Demogorgon to get an idea of his surroundings and position.
Step 2: True Portal in with 15 squares of him. In the surprise round, activate your Scarabs of Invulnerability! Yay!
Step 3: After he's wasted his round, wizard delays after warlord. Warlord gives wizard an inspiring word for +10 attack.
Step 4: Wizard (Orbizard) pulls out his two Orbs of Ultimate Imposition. Uses sleep on one head, action point, recover orb of imposition feature, use other orb to mask of death on the other.
Step 5: They both fail their saves and fall unconscious.
Step 6: Imprisonment as a standard action.
Step 7: True Portal back to your hideout as a standard action.
Step 8: Repeat Steps 1-7 on every evil deity and primordial or demon lord in existence.
Step 9: ???
Step 10: Profit!

So, its not really "lethal". But he ain't coming back.
Thoughts?

[Alteran]

Very nice! I appreciate your abuse of my Magister + Imprisonment trick. I'll say my first theoretical applications for it were less...world-shaking.

A few issues:

1. Only one orb is necessary. Demogorgon's heads are not attacked separately, even though they both get turns. It is still one monster. That also means you don't need to be a Truenamer, since you only need one use of implement mastery.

2. Scarab of Invulnerability only renders you immune to damage. You'd better have an amazing will defense, since he has several chances to daze you or knock you unconscious.

3. The annoyingly arbitrary yet mandatory release conditions on imprisonment could be interpreted unfavourably by your DM. Think about it...some sort of elaborate ritual carried out by cultists? The kind that requires years of preparation, expensive materials, and countless human sacrifices? The kind that might provide a plot hook for another group of adventurers?

[Shadow_Elf]

Very nice! I appreciate your abuse of my Magister + Imprisonment trick. I'll say my first theoretical applications for it were less...world-shaking.

A few issues:

1. Only one orb is necessary. Demogorgon's heads are not attacked separately, even though they both get turns. It is still one monster. That also means you don't need to be a Truenamer, since you only need one use of implement mastery.

2. Scarab of Invulnerability only renders you immune to damage. You'd better have an amazing will defense, since he has several chances to daze you or knock you unconscious.

3. The annoyingly arbitrary yet mandatory release conditions on imprisonment could be interpreted unfavourably by your DM. Think about it...some sort of elaborate ritual carried out by cultists? The kind that requires years of preparation, expensive materials, and countless human sacrifices? The kind that might provide a plot hook for another group of adventurers?

Very good points. I'm sure there's some magical cheese to help against the will attacks. Its also highly likely that with the Taclord bonus your Inititiative counts will be ludicrous.

In addition, on the subject of Imprisonment conditions: You set them. So:
Demogorgon is imprisoned. The conditions? Orcus must stand on the exact location where you imprisoned him, spin around 678.25 degrees, hop thirty-three times on one foot without using his wings to balance and perform an entire four set of the macarena in under fifteen seconds. Know what you do then? Take an extended rest while Orcus decides not to help Demogorgon. Then what do you do? Scry and die Orcus of course. The condition for his release? Demogorgon escapes .

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Very nice! I appreciate your abuse of my Magister + Imprisonment trick. I'll say my first theoretical applications for it were less...world-shaking.

A few issues:

1. Only one orb is necessary. Demogorgon's heads are not attacked separately, even though they both get turns. It is still one monster. That also means you don't need to be a Truenamer, since you only need one use of implement mastery.

2. Scarab of Invulnerability only renders you immune to damage. You'd better have an amazing will defense, since he has several chances to daze you or knock you unconscious.

Is there any reason you wouldn't be able to do all of this in the surprise round, since you only have the one target, dropping the Scarab part completely?

[Alteran]

You must set one or more possible conditions that release the creature, should they come to pass.

I would be surprised if a DM let you get away with conditions that while technically possible, would obviously never come to pass.

Is there any reason you wouldn't be able to do all of this in the surprise round, since you only have the one target, dropping the Scarab part completely?

You can't spend action points in surprise rounds. Sleep/Face of Death is a standard action, and thanks to Magister, so is Imprisonment.

Your best bet is to beat Demogorgon's initiative check. He gets +24, and you have a taclord, sooo...

Roll Twice (Danger Sense)
4 (Improved Initiative)
2 (Combat Leader)
10 (Quickening Order, Warlord 22 Utility. This also gives you +10 to attack and damage rolls on your first turn, so you can go first safely.)
15 (Half Level)
0 (No Dex mod)

= +31, and you roll twice. You will almost definitely win initiative, and then attack with an attack bonus higher than Demogorgon's will defense.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I would be surprised if a DM let you get away with conditions that while technically possible, would obviously never come to pass.

Orcus has to destroy 50K of magic lewt at this location and say a certain incantation. Then, again, Imprison Orcus a day later, with the condition that Demogogon must perform the ritual. The conditions can come to pass, aren't particularly hard, you just render them impossible. Similar to saying that someone must stand at that location and say an incantation, then flooding the area with Lava.

You can't spend action points in surprise rounds. Sleep/Face of Death is a standard action, and thanks to Magister, so is Imprisonment.

Your best bet is to beat Demogorgon's initiative check. He gets +24, and you have a taclord, sooo...

I must be misssing something. If the heads are one creature, why do you need both Sleep and Face of Death?

[HamsterOfTheGod]

He he. So the 4e one-shots keep building. The other one I know is Blade Cascade vs Orcus...until they errata'ed it out.

[Alteran]

Orcus has to destroy 50K of magic lewt at this location and say a certain incantation. Then, again, Imprison Orcus a day later, with the condition that Demogogon must perform the ritual. The conditions can come to pass, aren't particularly hard, you just render them impossible. Similar to saying that someone must stand at that location and say an incantation, then flooding the area with Lava.

Like I said, it's technically possible. There's just no chance of it actually happening. It feels sort of like cheating to me, and your DM may agree.

I must be misssing something. If the heads are one creature, why do you need both Sleep and Face of Death?

You don't. You choose one, and it's a standard action. Then...ooooh, wait. Demogorgon needs to fail a save before he falls unconscious. So he gets at least one turn, and he's just slowed or immobilized for that one. That is, unless you win initiative and then daze or stun him.

[Gralamin]

Nice Build. Also keep in mind you can have an emergency Extended rest via the Fantastic Recuperation ritual.

[FoE]

He he. So the 4e one-shots keep building.

"OMG, there's a combo at the highest character level in the game that allows you to one-shot a powerful monster! Clearly 4E is utterly broken and D&D is ruined forever. Let's converge on the game stores and start burning the books immediately."

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Makes you wonder though...Should game developers hire ethical game hackers before they put out their products?

Edit: I mean if WotC really doesn't want "broken" abilities. I can't imagine the "ethical hack" CYA hack would cost them that much.

[SadisticFishing]

Gasp. Orbizard is broken.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Makes you wonder though...Should game developers hire ethical game hackers before they put out their products?

Edit: I mean if WotC really doesn't want "broken" abilities. I can't imagine the "ethical hack" would cost them that much.

Wait... what would an "unethical" game hacker entail?

In computer security, the difference is clear - someone who cracks systems for lulz and someone who cracks them to improve their security - but what would an "unethical" game hacker do?

[Kylarra]

Wait... what would an "unethical" game hacker entail?

In computer security, the difference is clear - someone who cracks systems for lulz and someone who cracks them to improve their security - but what would an "unethical" game hacker do?

Stealing books (or .pdfs) and finding loopholes for the lulz?


oh wait...

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Wait... what would an "unethical" game hacker entail?

In computer security, the difference is clear - someone who cracks systems for lulz and someone who cracks them to improve their security - but what would an "unethical" game hacker do?

Alright I was trying to find the term...it's not really about "ethics".

How about "CYA" hacker?

[Yakk]

Suppose you did that and I was DM.

Then someone dressed as Orcus (and I mean well dressed..) could partially break your imprisonment, releasing an essence of Demigorgon. Which could then release more of Orcus, etc.

Similarly, while you intended this location, if someone can research what the location seemed like, they could arrange via similarity magic for another location to be a stand-in for that location. In order to 'fool' the imprisonment magic, this would require that the location be a similar (magically) as they could pull off.

The easiest way to do this would be to reenact the events of the imprisonment symbolically, use props and magical glyphs to fill in for missing elements, and kill someone to mark the location you want the stand in to be. Then you take your stand-in for Demigorgon, and have them engage in the imprisonment dismissal ritual, which then frees a fragment of Orcus from your trap.

Some low-level adventurers get wind of some strange kidnapping at a circus. Someone has stolen a two-headed baboon, and killed 7 members of the circus while doing it!

:)

[KillianHawkeye]

If I was the DM I would say that A) Demogorgon isn't surprised, and B) he's got a ton of demons/minions/servants hanging around him at all times. Same goes for any deity or near-deity (Arch Devil, Demon Prince, Primordial, Elder Elemental, Feylord, Archangel, etc.).

[Grynning]

Alright I was trying to find the term...it's not really about "ethics".

How about "CYA" hacker?

They already kind of have this with playtesting, but the high level aspects of almost any RPG are the least playtested (and hence the most buggy)because they're the least commonly played.

The level 30 combos in 4th I really don't see as a problem, because very few people will actually ever play level 30 games. Also, in 4th...the game stops at 30. Your character becomes immortal. It's done. There is nothing else to do, no treasure or XP that you actually need. So what if you one-shot a demon lord? Doesn't hurt anything, because you really don't gain anything from it by the time you can do it. Also, this is the kind of thing level 30 characters would figure out and try to pull off, they have the power. But their opponents have access to powerful abilities and allies as well, and you can bet if the players did this to one demon lord, the other ones would either try to hire them or destroy them ASAP.

[SadisticFishing]

They already kind of have this with playtesting, but the high level aspects of almost any RPG are the least playtested (and hence the most buggy)because they're the least commonly played.

The level 30 combos in 4th I really don't see as a problem, because very few people will actually ever play level 30 games. Also, in 4th...the game stops at 30. Your character becomes immortal. It's done. There is nothing else to do, no treasure or XP that you actually need. So what if you one-shot a demon lord? Doesn't hurt anything, because you really don't gain anything from it by the time you can do it. Also, this is the kind of thing level 30 characters would figure out and try to pull off, they have the power. But their opponents have access to powerful abilities and allies as well, and you can bet if the players did this to one demon lord, the other ones would either try to hire them or destroy them ASAP.

What do you gain?

An epic last boss fight, a capstone of your adventuring career. The end of a campaign, the final climax.

Not "Orb it. Fight over."

[Yahzi]

If I was the DM I would say that A) Demogorgon isn't surprised, and B) he's got a ton of demons/minions/servants hanging around him at all times. Same goes for any deity or near-deity (Arch Devil, Demon Prince, Primordial, Elder Elemental, Feylord, Archangel, etc.).

Yes, exactly. You cannot surprise any creature with an INT of 20+ and easy access to Commune/Contact Other Planes/Divination.

Also, all those minions are there for a reason.

[Ridureyu]

Man, it looks like 4E is broken and cheap, with too many easy exploits that wreck the game. I'm so glad we have 3.5, which is perfectly balanced and has no broken or cheap exploits whatsoever!

[Oracle_Hunter]

Man, it looks like 4E is broken and cheap, with too many easy exploits that wreck the game. I'm so glad we have 3.5, which is perfectly balanced and has no broken or cheap exploits whatsoever!

Come now, there's no reason to start an Edition "brush war" over here.

Sure there are exploits in 4E. Fine. I'm happy to see they're only available at Epic (if not only at LV 30) and that they're not actually Win Buttons.

As has been said, there are lots of non-cheesy ways to defeat this tactic; Forbidance alone should stop this sort of attack cold.

[FoE]

Come now, there's no reason to start an Edition "brush war" over here.

He started it.

As has been said, there are lots of non-cheesy ways to defeat this tactic; Forbidance alone should stop this sort of attack cold.

Given that Demogorgan is immortal, it wouldn't be out of the question for him to ward his headquarters against teleportation at some point in the thousands of years that he's lived.

Also, Observe Creature will only work if you are on the same plane as Demogorgon, and True Portal only allows for travel within the same plane. To travel directly to Demogorgon, you would need to start out in the same plane as him.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

They already kind of have this with playtesting, but the high level aspects of almost any RPG are the least playtested (and hence the most buggy)because they're the least commonly played.

Exactly. They get playtesters for playability. That's like doing user testing. But if you want to test for "exploits", you don't get a regular user, you get a "hacker". And level has little to do with it since "exploits exist at every level. Sleep is a level 1 power, no?

The level 30 combos in 4th I really don't see as a problem, because very few people will actually ever play level 30 games.

Problem? The very fact that you say a one-shot at level 30 would not cause a problem because its rarely played reveals your bias. And I think it is a bias shared by many including the 4e designers, namely that save or die, or one shots, or killer combos or exploits are a problem.

I, personally, don't feel that way.

I think that if you set up a game system as expansive a large as D&D, then invariable you will find such exploits. And I do not think such exploits make the game broken. And specifically I do not think the blade cascade one shot or the combo described in this thread indicate that 4e is broken.

My point was, after putting in a lot of effort to build a system that is extremely balanced and free of one-shot effects, the 4e design team might be well served by "exploit testing" not just playtesting.

But who knows? Maybe they do check for exploits before release. But you can't catch all the bugs :)

Also, in 4th...the game stops at 30. Your character becomes immortal. It's done. There is nothing else to do, no treasure or XP that you actually need.

Well not according to the RAW...yet. I wouldn't be surprised if some time later WotC came out with rules for "Immortals". They did it before. And even if they don't, I wouldn't be surprised if some gamers somewhere did not try to dial it to 11...or 31 in this case.

But their opponents have access to powerful abilities and allies as well, and you can bet if the players did this to one demon lord, the other ones would either try to hire them or destroy them ASAP.

Now you're talking old school.

[dr.cello]

Worth noting is that Demogorgon has +5 to saves, giving him about a 1/5 chance of failing his first save against sleep, plus whatever your odds are of hitting with Sleep--which, after +10, would be admittedly pretty good, but still diluting your chances of pulling it off.

And, since save ends unconsciousness, there's a very good chance Demogorgon will save on his second turn this round if he failed the first one (since he gets two turns per round with full actions) and get back up before you can use Imprisonment.

[Grynning]

What do you gain?

An epic last boss fight, a capstone of your adventuring career. The end of a campaign, the final climax.

Not "Orb it. Fight over."

I dunno. I would find successfully "WTF pwning" a demon lord a pretty epic story to tell. But as I pointed out, if you did that, a good DM would very quickly go "hrm, that wasn't what I had in mind for that fight. Let's come up with something new to finish the campaign."

Also, a lot of people are talking about these combos (or "exploits" if you will) as if they're easy to pull off. They're NOT. They're incredibly situational, require you to surprise the monster in character, require you to surprise your DM out of character, and they have several points of failure. If a player ever actually successfully used Orb/Sleep, Orcus killer ranger, or the Imprisonment thing above, it would actually be a pretty amazing accomplishment.

Edit: I actually have a good example from a 3.5 ed epic campaign of how one-shotting a powerful foe can still be very epic in feel. We were going up against a very advanced Dracolich, whose phylactery we had in our possession, but it was trapped all to hell and we couldn't figure out how to destroy it. However, a resurrected evil god ended up stealing the phylactery from us and embedding it in himself (which our DM explained meant that he would get the Dracoliches soul if we killed it). We then concocted a really wacky plan to use Trap the Soul to get the Dracolich, by disguising the triggering gem as his phylactery and offering it to him. It took a lot of haggling with magic dealers, illusion spells, and a very lucky, magically augmented Bluff check by our Bard, but it worked, fight averted and enemy defeated. We were very proud of ourselves, and the DM was actually pretty impressed with our efforts. Of course then we had to deal with the evil god, but the point is one-shotting a big bad isn't ever really "trivial."

[Oracle_Hunter]

Worth noting is that Demogorgon has +5 to saves, giving him about a 1/5 chance of failing his first save against sleep, plus whatever your odds are of hitting with Sleep--which, after +10, would be admittedly pretty good, but still diluting your chances of pulling it off.

And, since save ends unconsciousness, there's a very good chance Demogorgon will save on his second turn this round if he failed the first one (since he gets two turns per round with full actions) and get back up before you can use Imprisonment.

Ah, you are unfamiliar with Orbizard cheese.

Thanks to WotC's "brilliant" design team, there are a huge number of magic items that can stack penalties on Saving Throws. As Titanium Dragon over on the WotC Forums pointed out, this indicates that WotC doesn't understand how Saving Throws work in 4E; these items allow for an Orbizard to impose up to -20 on Saving Throws, indefinitely.

Fortunately, this problem is easily fixed by banning Orbs of Ultimate Imposition and other stupidly powerful Saving Throw items.