[4e] Melee Training - How does it work?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Melee Training is, without a doubt, one of the best feats 4e has. But one thing about it has been bugging me about it ever since it came out. How exactly would a character fight using the different stats as his or her melee stat? Dexterity, it's pretty obvious. It's practically like Weapon Finesse in 3.5. Constitution, I'm not too sure about. I think it'd mean overwhelming strikes, but that seems like it'd be Strength's territory. I have no idea how the three mental stats would work in this regard, especially Charisma for all those Chaladins out there.

How do you define how Melee Training interacts with the different non-Strength stats? How do you have a mental stat power a phyiscal attack? I don't know how to justify it roleplay-wise.

[kieza]

I think the best interpretation of Constitution is that you're pushing yourself beyond normal bounds. Most people would hurt themselves putting as much as you do into a swing (pulled muscle, hernia, etc.); you just shrug it off. It's just one of those things that doesn't make sense in 4th edition. (Don't get me wrong, I love 4e, but there is some weirdness in it.)

Mental stats are easier; Intelligence is spotting and exploiting brief openings, Wisdom is predicting the target's movement, getting inside their head, etc., and Charisma is using body language, distraction and feints to create openings.

[Xefas]

How do you define how Melee Training interacts with the different non-Strength stats? How do you have a mental stat power a phyiscal attack? I don't know how to justify it roleplay-wise.

Well, for instance, 3.5 Swashbucklers use Intelligence for damage, flavoring it as a "I don't just swing willy-nilly, I know exactly how to get under your guard and hit you right where it hurts and know exactly how to time it perfectly because I'm just that smart."

There's that feat Intuitive Strike from 3.0/3.5 Book of Exalted Deeds that's an "I'm so in tune with the flow of battle, and so comfortable and natural with combat situations, that my insight simply shows me when and where to hit you."

And Charisma? Feint. 3.5 feint uses Charisma to make it easier to hurt people. "I tricked you into putting up your defenses that way, but in reality I was coming from the other side and now you're screwed." Works for Charisma to AC as well, for the CHA rogue flavor.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Strength: You fight with brute force (which, obviously, includes speed, since kinetic energy is about speed...).
Dexterity: You fight with finesse, accuracy, and nimbleness.
Constitution: You use your superior endurance to outlast and outperform your opponent, pushing yourself harder and taking risks others can't, shrugging off the effects.
Intelligence: You use clever moves and positioning, outwitting and outmaneuvering your opponent.
Wisdom: You let your instincts take over, moving, striking, and parrying without any thought. (Cf. mushin in martial arts.)

For Charisma, I can actually think of at least two options...
1. You use your superior confidence and flashy techniques to unnerve your enemy and bolster yourself.
2. You make use of your superior awareness of self, shutting out external distractions and moving in perfect unity of body and thought.


Wisdom and Intelligence are definitely the easiest - real fighters already do that stuff (at least in theory, in the case of Wisdom and zen martial arts).

[Nu]

The feat is called "Melee Training," right? So basically you've trained yourself to be able to engage in melee combat. You might not necessarily be able to pull off amazing stunts in melee like a martial character, but you can at least swing a weapon in a semi-competent manner.

While that doesn't reconcile using any ability score with the attack, it does explain how you've managed to become somewhat skilled with your melee basic attack in a roundabout manner.

[endoperez]

Constitution could be something so risky that it leaves you vulnerable for a moment, or leaving yourself open and cutting at the enemy when he tries to take advantage of it. You'd go "it's just a flesh wound" almost every round, or perhaps the enemy's blade would cut at your clothes without touching your skin, or miss "by a hair's breadth" - you could only fight like this if you were ready to actually take a blow any time.

[DSCrankshaw]

You could just take an "it's magic" approach. Basically, you use Melee Training to base your basic attacks on your primary stat. Since your primary stat is what you use to do your usual attacks, you could just interpret it as translating how you do your usual attacks to melee.

A warlock takes melee training is him using his magic to improve his accuracy with a blade. Same with a bard, sorcerer, or wizard. A paladin, cleric, avenger, or invoker taking melee training is using his faith to guide his attacks.

It's just using whatever explanation you normally use for their powers (magic, faith, spirits, or physique), and applying it to melee basic attacks.

[Knaight]

For constitution a way of fighting at fast pace because you tire slowly, combined with just accepting small wounds when fighting work. For instance, a scene in Moribito involves a weapon failure at a terrible time, a brief distraction, and another character going in with a slash. So the first character goes in, takes the slash, taking an injury with it, and ignores the injury for long enough to hit full force at the head with a staff. Constitution based fighting would be that sort of stuff. Although this usually shows up with the mental stats, which are easier to use anyways, combat has a very mental element, particularly melee combat.

[Leon]

Cha - Your Force of personality really packs a punch

[Mando Knight]

Cha - Your Force of personality really packs a punch

Alternatively, you cow the enemy into a weak stance by simply displaying how awesome you really are.

[Yakk]

The easiest interpretation is that you are now a serious expert at melee combat.

How much of an expert? About +3+Character Level. Hey wait a second, that happens to be what your primary attack stat happens to be!

[The Rose Dragon]

Kurald will soon come and explain how you're not, in fact, using Constitution to power your melee attacks, you're using your Ability Score #3 to add to your Attack Type 1 rolls.

He will then explain how statements by the designers of 4th Edition supports this claim; that the names for ability scores really mean nothing.

And then someone like me will come and explain how D&D is weird and bad and you should go play Unisystem.

Then there may be an edition / system fight.

Let's cut to the chase: you're reading more than the designers intended into the names and descriptions.The in-game description for any form of Melee Training is whatever you want it to be.

[Kurald Galain]

Kurald will soon come and explain how you're not, in fact, using Constitution to power your melee attacks, you're using your Ability Score #3 to add to your Attack Type 1 rolls.

Heh. Actually, I wanted to point out that melee training really isn't all that great a feat, and certainly not "one of the best feats 4e has". It's pretty useless to the vast majority of classes, who either (1) already have strength as a primary attribute, or (2) don't have the need to bother with basic attacks, ever.

[Yuki Akuma]

Kurald will soon come and explain how you're not, in fact, using Constitution to power your melee attacks, you're using your Ability Score #3 to add to your Attack Type 1 rolls.

He will then explain how statements by the designers of 4th Edition supports this claim; that the names for ability scores really mean nothing.

And then someone like me will come and explain how D&D is weird and bad and you should go play Unisystem.

Then there may be an edition / system fight.

Let's cut to the chase: you're reading more than the designers intended into the names and descriptions.The in-game description for any form of Melee Training is whatever you want it to be.

But Constitution still adds to hit points. So no, that argument? Doesn't really work as well as you seem to think it does.

Constitution is health and endurance. Charisma is personality - it adds to social skills.

Just because the system is designed so none of the abilities is the weakest anymore (hello, 2e Charisma) doesn't mean none of the abilities mean anything at all anymore.

[Tengu_temp]

Heh. Actually, I wanted to point out that melee training really isn't all that great a feat, and certainly not "one of the best feats 4e has". It's pretty useless to the vast majority of classes, who either (1) already have strength as a primary attribute, or (2) don't have the need to bother with basic attacks, ever.

I'd say that all frontliners who don't use strength as a primary attribute should consider this feat - especially charisma-based paladins and swordmages. Otherwise your opportunity attacks and charges suck, and you can't take full advantage of the many powers that grant you extra basic attacks.

[Godric]

Doesn't the feat say that it's only for *basic* attacks? Aka, you can't change the stat for your attack powers, only for basic attacks?

[Yuki Akuma]

Yes.

What's your point?

[Tengu_temp]

Yes, it's only basic attacks. Did anyone here claim it's for other powers as well?

[The Rose Dragon]

Just because the system is designed so none of the abilities is the weakest anymore (hello, 2e Charisma) doesn't mean none of the abilities mean anything at all anymore.

I actually like the system of D&D 4th Edition (not as a roleplaying game, maybe, but certainly as a game). And it's not my argument (it can't be my argument, I only had a brief look at the books), it's the designers'.

Leave it to WotC to not realize how their system works, I guess?

[Kurald Galain]

I'd say that all frontliners who don't use strength as a primary attribute should consider this feat

Sure. But there's a fair amount of difference beteen saying that all characters that (1) are frontlines and (2) don't have a strength primary should (3) consider this feat, and claiming it's one of the best feats in the game hands down.

It's certainly not a bad option, but on the other hand opportunity attacks are rather rare in the game (unless there is a fighter present), charging is surprisingly unnecessary for any character with ranged capability (such as, oh say, pretty much all chaladins and swordmages) and there aren't all that "many powers that grant you extra basic attacks" unless there's a warlord around. I'm not saying it's a bad feat; I am saying that it's overrated by the OP.

[Tiki Snakes]

I'd say that all frontliners who don't use strength as a primary attribute should consider this feat - especially charisma-based paladins and swordmages. Otherwise your opportunity attacks and charges suck, and you can't take full advantage of the many powers that grant you extra basic attacks.

Except for all those powers that COUNT as basic attacks, or can be used on a charge. :)

[Tengu_temp]

Are there any powers that can be used as melee basic attacks?

[Shpadoinkle]

Related.

Don't think about 4e. Just play. It doesn't make sense and wasn't meant to.

[Doom314]

Eh, it's kinda like using physical strength to solve a crossword puzzle, or so I thought.

[Decoy Lockbox]

You could just take an "it's magic" approach. Basically, you use Melee Training to base your basic attacks on your primary stat. Since your primary stat is what you use to do your usual attacks, you could just interpret it as translating how you do your usual attacks to melee.

A warlock takes melee training is him using his magic to improve his accuracy with a blade. Same with a bard, sorcerer, or wizard. A paladin, cleric, avenger, or invoker taking melee training is using his faith to guide his attacks.

It's just using whatever explanation you normally use for their powers (magic, faith, spirits, or physique), and applying it to melee basic attacks.

Yeah, I like that approach.

For charisma-based paladins, I always assumed it worked like this. Your body may be weak, but your swing with the might of faith, not strength of swordarm.

[Kurald Galain]

Related.

Don't think about 4e. Just play. It doesn't make sense and wasn't meant to.

You mean This one

[The New Bruceski]

Are there any powers that can be used as melee basic attacks?

According to the Compendium, 9 At-Will.

Spoiler

Show

Howling Strike	        Barbarian	Players Handbook 2
Grasping Claws	        Druid	       	Players Handbook 2
Pounce	                Druid	       	Players Handbook 2
Savage Rend	        Druid	       	Players Handbook 2
Knockdown Assault	Fighter       	 PH Heroes: Series 1
Eldritch Strike	        Warlock	         PH Heroes: Series 1
Brash Assault	        Warlord      	Martial Power
Opening Shove	        Warlord      	Martial Power
Commanders Strike	Warlord      	Players Handbook

EDIT: scratch the Warlord ones, I forgot to check where "melee basic attack" ended up in the power. Those refer to others' attacks.

[Tengu_temp]

According to the Compendium, 9 At-Will.

Spoiler

Show

Howling Strike	        Barbarian	Players Handbook 2
Grasping Claws	        Druid	       	Players Handbook 2
Pounce	                Druid	       	Players Handbook 2
Savage Rend	        Druid	       	Players Handbook 2
Knockdown Assault	Fighter       	 PH Heroes: Series 1
Eldritch Strike	        Warlock	         PH Heroes: Series 1
Brash Assault	        Warlord      	Martial Power
Opening Shove	        Warlord      	Martial Power
Commanders Strike	Warlord      	Players Handbook

EDIT: scratch the Warlord ones, I forgot to check where "melee basic attack" ended up in the power. Those refer to others' attacks.

Do any of the non-druid, non-warlock ones work when you're not charging?

[SSGoW]

using cha/int ? Dashing swordsman of course :3

[SadisticFishing]

This is very easy to explain. You're trained. You know how to fight in melee.

If you've ever done any real fighting, you learn to capitalize on your strengths - that's all this feat does. You use what you're best at instead of your strength.

Makes perfect sense, and 3.5 is the illogical one for LACKING this option.