Nerfing ToB (Hear me Out)

[Bracket]

First before I say anything, I want everyone to know that I know that the classes in Tome of Battle are not overpowered compared to classes like wizard and druid. So I never claimed that. Okay?

Okay, I'm DMing a campaign where the players are a fighter, wizard, barbarian, and warblade. I usually make changes in a game (Giving some more enemies SR, high saves, banning certain spells), so that casters aren't ridiculous in power. I usually only play core, but one of my friends got ToB and is playing the warblade. Since my changes, the wizard is roughly at the same level as the rogue and fighter, but now I'm noticing the warblade is outperforming the rest of the party.

So my question is: Is there any way to make changes to my enemies that would make the warblade perform at the same level as the rest of the party, or changes to the warblade class directly?

Thanks in advance
-Bracket

[Animefunkmaster]

How is the warblade built? What type of weapons what type of maneuvers?

[Bracket]

Oh right, I suppose that is relevant

Basically he took monkey grip from... I forget what (we play mostly core, he has a lot of books though), so he has a 3d6 great axe, and he mostly uses stone dragon maneuvers. They're all level 5 right now.

[InkEyes]

I'd say you should first try asking your players if they feel overshadowed by the Warblade. Then, offering them more options like expanding their feat/equipment selection beyond whatever they've got. Barbarians are probably right about on level with ToB classes and even well-built fighters aren't terrible compared to them, they just need lots of splatbooks. If you've exhausted all your options, then you might try nerfing, but really it'd be easier to politely ask him to build another fighter or something than digging through ToB and printing out a huge list of banned stances, maneuvers, feats, upping saves and whatnot for a single character in the party.

Again, ask your players first how they feel about their performance levels in comparison to the Warblade. They might be having fun despite not being the top damage-dealers/killing machines in the game.

Edit-

Oh right, I suppose that is relevant

Basically he took monkey grip from... I forget what (we play mostly core, he has a lot of books though), so he has a 3d6 great axe, and he mostly uses stone dragon maneuvers. They're all level 5 right now.

Monkey Grip is actually a terrible feat because the damage output for it can be exceeded easily with a number of better feats, weapons and spells. If the warblade's only gimmick is dealing lots of damage and soaking it, then you might try putting him in a situation where he can't do either effectively. Flying enemies/ranged attackers are the ToB classes banes, and intelligent enemies will quickly figure out the Warblade is a bad choice to take on in comparison to the squishy wizard.

[Sinfire Titan]

Oh right, I suppose that is relevant

Basically he took monkey grip from... I forget what (we play mostly core, he has a lot of books though), so he has a 3d6 great axe, and he mostly uses stone dragon maneuvers. They're all level 5 right now.

There's your problem. He's level 5. Give the party 3 more levels, and you will notice his damage output will lag when he uses maneuvers.

Furthermore, a Wizard cannot be on the same level as a Rogue or a Fighter unless you've banned nearly half of the spells in the PHB. A simple Grease spell negates the fighter's class feature for 1 round/level, and a Blur spell negates the Rogue's Sneak Attack outright. With 2 spells (1st and 2nd level, respectively) the Wizard has the capability of shutting down both the Rogue and the Fighter. One spell if the Rogue didn't put ranks in Balance. This is the proverbial tip of the ice berg.

[Yuki Akuma]

monkey grip

How on earth is he on par with a Fighter with that feat?

;)

Well, Stone Dragon simply focuses on overwhelming damage - and some defenses. So just send monsters with lots of HP.

Alternatively, he's taking a -2 penalty to attack rolls - make him fight stuff with higher ACs.

[Tehnar]

The problem with warblades is that they recover their maneuvers in a fairly painless manner. So you could propose a change that it takes 1 full round action (during which they can't do anything else) for their recovery.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh right, I suppose that is relevant

Basically he took monkey grip from... I forget what (we play mostly core, he has a lot of books though), so he has a 3d6 great axe, and he mostly uses stone dragon maneuvers. They're all level 5 right now.

That doesn't seem too overpowered... in fact, that's about like being an Evoker Wizard... failing to utilize 90% of what you can do.

If Stone Dragon is out-performing a wizard, then most of the party is horridly sub-optimized, and that is the least of their problems...

About the best thing Stone Dragon can do is Shards of Granite to ignore DR and Hardness. Oh, and at end-game content, Tombstone Strike does 2d6 Con damage. But that's when the Wizard is tossing around Sudden Max Time Stop combos.

[nysisobli]

Im tired of everyone saying the wizard is overpowered. Its only overpowered if you allow almost every sourcebook in existence, my players never have problems like this.

[Eldariel]

Complete Warrior. And it sounds like he's just dealing a lot of damage. Really, much comes down to how the rest of the party is playing out. If the Fighter is Sword & Boarding/Two-Weapon Fighting, he's going to be comparatively behind. If he's two-handing and has Power Attack, he should be about the same as the Warblade.

Either way, the most natural ways to slightly weaken one-hit wonders (that is, characters that use single attacks as their primary style; next level Fighter will mostly be using full attacks with that iterative of his) is to have opponents with miss chances (Blink Dog, Displacer Beast, casters with access to the appropriate spells, Mirror Images [acquirable from items for melee types too], etc.), relatively high AC or counters against single attacks (such as Wall of Blades [Level 2 Iron Heart maneuver from ToB; use an attack roll as your AC for the next attack - other such things like Baffling Defense [use Sense Motive] exist) and so on.

One big thing to notice is that Warblades lack ranged capabilities (and Stone Dragon Warblade can't even use his maneuvers while flying) so throwing ranged/flying encounters at the PCs (even just a bunch of Goblins/Kobolds/Hobgoblins with bows behind walls/in some towers/such) definitely works out.


But he shouldn't need too much downtreading; he isn't the most powerful kind of Warblade anyways. Just make sure the Fighter gets his due in the feats (that's all a Fighter gets; make sure the ones he gets are decent) and that the Barbarian has a decent stat spread and Rages often (that's all he gets; you should probably suggest him Extra Rage [CWar] on those levels, which allows him to Rage 2 more times per day - Rage is again Barbarian's primary class feature so it needs to be around a lot) and that the Wizard knows what he's doing and you shouldn't really have balance problems.

The Wizard can really be the hardest, 'cause if he likes throwing Fireballs, there's really no way to make him stronger than what he is right now, meaning he might feel diminished if everyone else is doing more damage than he is. However, if he's a team player, it won't trouble him (and indeed, if he tosses Haste to that party, he'll be dealing a Fckton of damage). Really, the biggest problems in ToBbers is that they are "pre-optimized"; that is, you don't need to really do anything and they'll be good, while many other classes can range from "can't beat CR-1 encounter by themselves" to "can beat CR+2 encounter by themselves" depending on how they are built. That seems to be what's going on here; others just aren't built to the level the ToBber is.


nysisobli: Read the Core spell list.

[chiasaur11]

Im tired of everyone saying the wizard is overpowered. Its only overpowered if you allow almost every sourcebook in existence, my players never have problems like this.

Actually, most wizard arguments focus on core. Where the wizard dominates handily, if he's prepared.

The thing about wizards is, you have to know what you're doing. If you point n blast, then you aren't going to be nearly as broken as a guy who enslaves whole planes through gaping holes in the logic of the rules.

[InkEyes]

Im tired of everyone saying the wizard is overpowered. Its only overpowered if you allow almost every sourcebook in existence, my players never have problems like this.

Even with only the PHB in play the wizard still has access to absurd spells like timestop, gate, wish and shapechange. The power-level of all the core casters is exacerbated by adding in other sourcebooks, sure, but in some cases it's good; like all the good spells given to the ranger and paladin outside of core. It also depends on the game in question. I'm sure somewhere out there is a DM that loves playing with IotSFV Wizards and Planar Shepherd Druids.

But really, how is this relevant to nerfing ToB?

[Keld Denar]

Im tired of everyone saying the wizard is overpowered. Its only overpowered if you allow almost every sourcebook in existence, my players never have problems like this.

And here we go again...

Want to have some fun with your Warblade? Give some ToB manuevers to their enemies. You don't even have to give them class levels. You are the DM. That Ogre can use Supreme Blade Parry once per encounter to counter the big Warblade's Ancient Tombstone, or that shifty kobald Countercharges his Warleaders Charge, or whatever.

The biggest part of including ToB in your game as a DM is to learn it. Figure out what some of the offense and defensive abilities are, and incorporate them into your game in minor ways like the above examples. ToB is strongish, and most published content isn't designed to withstand all of it, but fortunately, its also easily addable to existing games. Just like "caster" enemies often get Spell Like Abilities, just tack a couple 1/day or 2/day maneuvers onto any "martial" enemy.

Really, the biggest problems in ToBbers is that they are "pre-optimized"

+1

[ZeroNumerous]

Im tired of everyone saying the wizard is overpowered. Its only overpowered if you allow almost every sourcebook in existence, my players never have problems like this.

'Cept, you know, a vast swathe of Wizard-centric optimization relies on Core. Shapechange, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement/Exhaustion..

[Doc Roc]

Im tired of everyone saying the wizard is overpowered. Its only overpowered if you allow almost every sourcebook in existence, my players never have problems like this.

I.... there was just a cogent explanation of why it's powerful. I don't hear a rejoinder from you.

Nerfing ToB.... Part of it may be that your other players are nova-focused, though I can't quite figure out how your fighter might be. If you're playing core only, and the fighter isn't either mounted or abusing standstill, there's not as much for a fighter to do. You might consider banning it or opening up more sources.

[ErrantX]

Fighters can learn martial maneuvers and stances with their bonus feats, and anyone can use their advancement feats on those (should they qualify for the level reqs). All in all, I'd suggest loosening the reigns on the wizard and just ban Monkey Grip (a feat I personally detest, YMMV here). If the fighter and rogue are falling behind, well, then perhaps they should consider multiclassing into different classes or prestige classes, or find a different way to contribute more outside of simple combat. The rogue could focus on trapspringing and lock picking, for example. And honestly, a moderately well built fighter can still perform well in a group with a martial adept, especially one with the Dungeoncrasher alternate class feature from Dungeonscape.

You really shouldn't need to do a lot of work to make it even. And as Inkeyes suggested, talk to your other players first. If they're feeling out matched by the warblade, then you should sit down with all of them together and talk about that. Let the fighter reroll as a warblade or a crusader, or let the rogue multiclass a few levels into swordsage. There are lots of options.

2 cents,
-X

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I.... there was just a cogent explanation of why it's powerful. I don't hear a rejoinder from you.

Give him a minute. This forum can be...active.

@The OP: Make sure he's using the rules right. At this point he should have 1 3rd level maneuver(probably Bonecrusher if he's focused on Stone Dragon) and 2 first level stances. If he spent his 5th level bonus feat, he may have a 3rd level stance or 2 3rd level maneuvers. If this is not the case, there's an issue.

[Bracket]

Wizards are generally very easy to control when you know what all the spells to look out for are. That's why the wizard is being outperformed. Also, none of my players are optimizers. They are smart, and can usually tell when some choices will be better than others, but no they aren't optimizers.

That's why the warblade is ahead right now. (And I had another game that went to level 12 where someone played a swordsage, and that went pretty badly) It mostly the whole manuever after maneuver each turn.

I guess stepping up the AC of enemies is a good idea though. Fighter and Barbarian have higher attack bonus then him, so that could work.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Question: What level is the party? Tiger Claw does WAY more damage than Stone Dragon, which focuses more on ignoring DR and defending yourself, with some charging around and getting in people's faces.

You think this is bad? Wait until you see what Pouncing Strike + xing mongoose can do to damage output...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Wizards are generally very easy to control when you know what all the spells to look out for are. That's why the wizard is being outperformed. Also, none of my players are optimizers. They are smart, and can usually tell when some choices will be better than others, but no they aren't optimizers.

It depends a lot on the Wizard. At low levels, you just have to make sure the monsters aren't vulnerable to the Wizard's favorite Save-or-X. But at about this point, you start facing Haste, and soon there will be Black Tentacles. An optimized Enchanter at level 9 or higher will make you never send a humanoid enemy at the party again, and Conjuration wrecks entire campaigns(Teleport).

[Sinfire Titan]

Im tired of everyone saying the wizard is overpowered. Its only overpowered if you allow almost every sourcebook in existence, my players never have problems like this.

Two Words: Astral Projection.

That's the start of the list pal. You want a longer one? Here:

Grease
Shapechange
Alter Self
Polymorph
Polymorph Any Object
Gate
Time Stop
Solid Fog
Cloudkill
Evard's Black Tentacles
Mordy's Disjunction
Control Undead
Wish
Limited Wish
Glitterdust
Sleep
Color Spray
Forcecage
Contingency
Scry
Teleport

This is a fragment of a Core Wizard's power. The list goes on for another 2 pages. To be honest, this is a list about as focused as a sneeze. I could explain why these spells are overpowered, but it would take pages/hours out of my life and I don't have that kind of time.

These spells alone rape the game balance, and are one of the reasons Wizards are amongst the 6 most powerful classes in the game. When a Fighter is able to bypass the restrictions of physics as a class feature that costs less than 10% of his class levels to use (a 9th level spell slot is less than 10% of a class feature, easily), then you can say Wizards aren't broken. When a Fighter is able to create a demiplane that has a 144,000 to 1 round advantage over the Material Plane, then a Fighter is broken. BTW, that last one uses the SRD only. Doing that as a standard action requires stepping outside of core, but not very far.


Reality is a Wizard's bitch.

[Eldariel]

Wizards are generally very easy to control when you know what all the spells to look out for are. That's why the wizard is being outperformed. Also, none of my players are optimizers. They are smart, and can usually tell when some choices will be better than others, but no they aren't optimizers.

That's why the warblade is ahead right now. (And I had another game that went to level 12 where someone played a swordsage, and that went pretty badly) It mostly the whole manuever after maneuver each turn.

That's really how it's supposed to work; instead of spamming attacks, adepts spam a variety of maneuvers that have some added bonuses, but generally can't be combined with full attacks and cost you levels to take; this results in other classes having their shtick (Fighter with feats to boost themselves, and Barbarian with Rage).

As for the Wizard, maybe lax up on him a bit if he's being outperformed? I mean, you'd optimally have all 4 about on the same level.

I guess stepping up the AC of enemies is a good idea though. Fighter and Barbarian have higher attack bonus then him, so that could work.

I'll repeat "Ranged/Flying opponents". Fighter and Barbarian both act decently at range given appropriate Composite Longbows and Wizard is naturally strong at range. Warblade, on the other hand, has no real ranged weapon proficiencies and can't use Stone Dragon while flying.

That said, punishing his school choice (which is already weak) is a bit mean, so mayhap just go with the ranged types (behind barricades, in towers, behind trapped areas, etc. armed with bows, shooting spines, breath weapons, spells or whatever) mostly.


And yeah, AC increases and perchance miss chances and one-hit counters (next level they get iteratives which he won't really be using; also Haste gives extra attack ToBbers don't get as much out of) all could serve too. There are just so many ways to go about it.

[Shpadoinkle]

Of COURSE the warblade is going to outshine the fighter and barbarian, fighters and barbarians suck. The whole point of the warblade is so you can play a melee type who doesn't suck and isn't a DMM cleric.

[AslanCross]

Im tired of everyone saying the wizard is overpowered. Its only overpowered if you allow almost every sourcebook in existence, my players never have problems like this.

Echoing every previous poster who said most of the nastiest Wizard spells are in core.


Anyway, OP:
-Check if your Warblade is using maneuvers of the appropriate level. While he's a 5th level warblade, he just might be using Warblade 5 maneuvers. It's like a 4th-level wizard using solid fog, a Wizard 4 spell. Warblade 5 maneuvers are only available at class levels 9 onwards. (Stupid level/level confusion.)
-Use monsters with Martial Adept levels. Raise monster HP (use maybe 70-80% of max HP instead of average, which is about 50%). An ogre with 1 level each of Barbarian and Warblade will be a lot tougher to deal with.

Seriously, I see no reason why a Stone Dragon Warblade using Monkey Grip is outperforming a Wizard apart from endurance (since he can refresh his maneuvers all day).

[Bracket]

Flyers, right!

Also, I'm not trying to start an argument on how powerful wizard is. The thing is he isn't being outperformed by the other two, just the warblade, like the rest of the party. And I was wrong, they're level 6.

Anyway, thanks for the good suggestions; there are a lot of helpful people here.

EDIT: And I understand the rules for ToB. He's legit.

[Yuki Akuma]

Fighters can learn martial maneuvers and stances with their bonus feats, and anyone can use their advancement feats on those (should they qualify for the level reqs). All in all, I'd suggest loosening the reigns on the wizard and just ban Monkey Grip (a feat I personally detest, YMMV here). If the fighter and rogue are falling behind, well, then perhaps they should consider multiclassing into different classes or prestige classes, or find a different way to contribute more outside of simple combat. The rogue could focus on trapspringing and lock picking, for example. And honestly, a moderately well built fighter can still perform well in a group with a martial adept, especially one with the Dungeoncrasher alternate class feature from Dungeonscape.

You really shouldn't need to do a lot of work to make it even. And as Inkeyes suggested, talk to your other players first. If they're feeling out matched by the warblade, then you should sit down with all of them together and talk about that. Let the fighter reroll as a warblade or a crusader, or let the rogue multiclass a few levels into swordsage. There are lots of options.

2 cents,
-X

...Ban Monkey Grip?!

Why?

Why would you ban Power Attack's retarded little brother and not Power Attack?

[Bracket]

-Actually I'm confusing myself (again.) He originally had monkey grip, thought it was stupid, and asked if he could swap it for power attack, which I agreed to.

[Yuki Akuma]

There's plenty wrong with Monkey Grip. It's Power Attack, but worse, and you can't turn it off or alter the penalty to hit/bonus damage.

Sorry, I hate Monkey Grip, but not because it's overpowered. Quite to the contrary in fact.

[Bracket]

By nothing wrong I meant it wasn't overpowered.

And it turns out doesn't have it like I thought.

[Keld Denar]

Sorry, I hate Monkey Grip, but not because it's overpowered. Quite to the contrary in fact.

Buster Sword fanboys?

Hmmm, where was that thread will that guy and all those banned people? That was a funny thread.