An idea I was tossing around *PRC*

[Deleran]

Are there any prestige classes that already exist which have a 5/4 BAB progression? Cause I've been thinking about making one. Does anyone see a problem with this idea?

Edit: Class on page 2!

[Brickwall]

Having a higher BAB advancement than a fighter? Sure, if you don't plan on giving him very many abilities or anything else. In fact, maybe 2 bonus feats by 10th level, seeing as how that gives about 12 BAB, plus the 10-max from another class. You've added a permanent +2 AB to a nonepic character right there. So its levels have to be less in abilities than a fighter for balance. doesn't sound worth it to me

[Hungerdog]

What Brickwall said.

I just don't see an effective way to have a BAB higher than the 1/per martial classes without it ending up so limited it's broken.

If you think you've got a workable one, stat it out for us, and I'm sure we'll all be happy to review it and feed back to you on it.

[Deleran]

I don't have a class to go with it per se, I was just trying to figure out the power level of the ability.

[Azrael]

A permanent +2 (over 10 levels) to base attack is not completely unfounded if you dig through the prestige classes. So, here are some restrictions that I would suggest:

* Only as part of a prestige class. A VERY well written one that has the flavor, pre-reqs and abilities to establish a purist fighter.
* The prestige class should be virtually unattainable by less than pure fighter breeds - i.e. it should not be a convenient way for a roque to get back to full base attack per HD.
* Any place this is used must compensate for the fact that BAB is... just awesome. It can only be taken away by level drain -- stat damage effects, antimagic field would have no effect.

The entire idea might be better suited to a special ability that would grant +1 @ 4th and +2 @ 8th.

EDIT: I've corrected the levels where the bonuses would accrue based on the next 3 posts.

[Deleran]

So basically what you're saying here is: Yes, there is a problem. Perhaps it could offset with an AC penalty (to represent that the character sacrfices defense for offense)?

Edit: Perhaps I could tank the rest of their stuff (all saves are bad, d8 hd or lower, small or nonexistant skills per level)?

[Democratus]

Keep in mind also that +5/4 is an extra +2 for every 8 levels - not every 10 levels.

[Deleran]

5 x 10 / 4= 12.5 round down = 12 or +2 over normal fighter. Its only a PrC, so theres only 10 levels. But you are correct that the bonuses would come at levels 4 and 8.

[Azrael]

Eh, a +BAB / -AC type thing could more easily be done with a single feat (or class ability) that would be the exact inverse of Combat Expertise. Prereqs of Power Attack and Cleave maybe?

I'm not really feeling the whole concept right now (which is strange, cause I love uber-fighter builds) so I'm not going to suggest an entire class concept. If you're up for it, start writing class features or a general outline of who/what/when and I'd be more than happy to critique...


EDIT: It gets said a lot, but it really is the best advice; When building a new mechanic Look for an existing class/feature/feat etc with close or similar abilities (not necessarily flavor, but statistical benefit) and work off of those.

[Julius]

Right, but 8 levels into the prestige class, you'd have +10 to hit. Thus, +2 after 8 levels.

Why don't you just grant a class feature that adds +X to the class's attack rolls. For example, there was a prestige class in sword and fist (Fist of Hextor), that allowed the character to add like +2 to attack rolls or damage rolls (but not both)... actually now that I think about it it was +1 and it increased to +2, +3 and maybe more as you progressed. Ah well, I can't remember exactly.

This way, you aren't breaking the hard and fast BAB progression rules.

[Deleran]

This way, you aren't breaking the hard and fast BAB progression rules.

That was kind of the whole point. I wanted to take something mundane and make it an exciting class feature.

Edit: Although its becoming increasingly clear that that might not be possible here.

[Azrael]

Any time you try to change a core dynamic, there will be resistance. Period.

Not to say the change isn't a) cool or b) helpful or even c) better... ;)

What we are trying to say, is that there are ways (plenty of them, I'd say) to achieve the desired result without rocking the entire system.

Didn't good ole' Forsaker give huge stat boost bonuses in exchange for not using magic? Between that and Hextor there should be some good precedent.

EDIT: Spelling.

EDIT X2: A true +12 in 10 levels would be a +6/5 progression. As stated above, the +5/4 would give you an extra +2 after only 8.

[Ayana]

The issue with BAB going above Character Level is that it wonks out PrC requirements, many of which are BAB-based.

I'd do something like this sort of like:

Class: base class
BAB: 1.0
Saves: Average / Poor / Poor (or Poor all the way if you don't go for Average save)
HD: d8
Proficiency: All simple and martial weapons, light armor, buckler.

L1: (stuff)
L2: (stuff)
L3:
L4: +1 unnamed attack bonus (only in light armor)
L5:
L6: Can take -2 on AC for +1 on attack (only in light armor)
L7:
L8: Treat your BAB as 1 higher for purpose of determining your number of iterative attacks (only in light armor)
L9:
L10: (stuff)
L11:
L12: +1 unnamed attack bonus (only in light armor)
L13:
L14: Can take -4 on AC for +2 on attack (only in light armor)
L15:
L16: (stuff)
L17:
L18: Add CHA to attack (only in light armor)
L19:
L20: +1 BAB (only in light armor)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd also probably also consider a line of feats that allows a permanent reduction in sneak attack (or other class features) to gain a permanent point of BAB. (Up to a max of Character Level) Should be interested for those who'd like a more fightery caster or rogue.

[Democratus]

There are three progression levels for saves? I thought it was just good and poor...

[Brickwall]

average goes up to 9 instead of 6 (poor) or 12 (good), I think. I believe some prestige classes have it

[Deleran]

Well, it would seem that the class is filling itself out just by the nature of having an improved BAB (as I figured it might).

#1) It needs a non-negligible penalty (the AC was just kind of a bad idea, I think).

#2) It needs good abilities at levels 9 and 10 to keep people interested in the class (So they don't just take 8 levels and go on). I like backloading abilities anyway, because it discourages munchkinry.

#3) It needs a fairly steep entry requirement (which could perhaps factor into the non-negligible penalty).

[Brickwall]

consider:

1. A decay of mental ability score(s) or dexterity

2. A good power to use might be Improved Power Attack (to go along with the high BAB). You get up to 1/4 (rounded down) of your BAB added to the Power Attack damage (I made that up in my brain, so you should be careful on using that)

3. An alignment requirement might be good in addition to others. Either good or evil, but probably not neutral. Also, DEFINITELY a good strength, like 15 at least. Maybe even 17. I'd probably include requiring Power Attack, and possibly even forcing the class to use only a certain weapon and require Weapon Focus (that weapon) and Improved Weapon Fopcus (that weapon). I'm starting to think of a Great Butcher class that is evil and specializes in greatswords and/or mercurial greatswords (Arms&Equipment guide if I'm not mistaken). If anyone likes that, do say so.

[Goumindong]

average goes up to 9 instead of 6 (poor) or 12 (good), I think. I believe some prestige classes have it

Average was removed in the jump to 3.5

Also, the +2 attack doesnt seem that broken, until you get into epic levels and have an extra iterative attack.(and you get the extra with 5 levels of this and 15 of a 1/1 bab class as well)

[Ayana]

I don't think this should have PA as a requirement. This kind of class might very well represent a very accurate fighter who knows how to hit very often, but not for a lot of strength. In fact sacrificing attack seems counter-themed for this class.

[McMouse]

The lowly Dragon Disciple get's a "total" of +11 to attack and +4 to damage, over 10 levels. I don't think +12 to attack would be bad...

[Sciurusaurus]

The lowly Dragon Disciple get's a "total" of +11 to attack and +4 to damage, over 10 levels. I don't think +12 to attack would be bad...

Uhh... no? If you include the Strength mods, it's +9 to hit and +2 to damage. The last to ability boosts are not to strength, but to Con and Int, respectively.

[Deleran]

I've got the idea for my class down. I'm pretty happy about it and it naturally incorporates the three required points. I'll have it up before the end of the week.

[Goumindong]

The lowly Dragon Disciple get's a "total" of +11 to attack and +4 to damage, over 10 levels. I don't think +12 to attack would be bad...

But remember, it is not "+12" to attack, it is +2 to Base Attack Bonus.

This is an extra iterative attack at 15 instead of 16, and another at 20

[Sir_Banjo]

Why not give the character an additional +1 to hit every 5 lvls? Or access to the under-utilised Weapon Focus tree?

I think these would work much better, especially Weapon Focus as it's already in the system.

[ImperiousLeader]

Assuming the PC takes only full BAB classes and this prestige class, they'd end with a BAB of 22, meaning they'd have 5 attacks in a full attack action. I haven't really played fighters, so I don't know if that's broken. I don't think so.

[Deleran]

So yeah, by "before the end of the week," I meant "tonight." This class was inspired because I was constantly put off by the way western swordfighting is usually depicted. A sword is not a club with an edge. I know better. And so does this guy. Also: I can't think of a good name. So help with that would be appreciated.
[hr]

Fencer

The fencer has trained with the bastard sword his entire life. He understands how to use the weapon to search out the weak points in his opponent's armor, and how to take advantage of the weaknesses in their technique. He is a highly technical fighter.

Prerequisites:
Feats: Heavy Armor Proficiency, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword, Weapon Specialization: Bastard Sword, Improved Grapple, Improved Feint.

Alignment: Any Lawful

Hit Dice: d10
Good Saves: none
Skills: 2 + int modifier
Class Skills: Bluff
BAB: 5/4 (this is outlined elsewhere in this thread, but I'll provide a progression table anyway)

Abilities:
{table]
[tr][td]Level[/td][td]BAB[/td][td]Saves[/td][td]Abilities[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1[/td][td]+1[/td][td]+0[/td][td]Swordfighter[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2[/td][td]+2[/td][td]+0[/td][td]Point of Attack[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3[/td][td]+3[/td][td]+1[/td][td]Improved Disarm[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4[/td][td]+5[/td][td]+1[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5[/td][td]+6[/td][td]+1[/td][td]Improved Initiative[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6[/td][td]+7[/td][td]+2[/td][td]Sword Grapple[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]7[/td][td]+8[/td][td]+2[/td][td]Advanced Feint[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]8[/td][td]+10[/td][td]+2[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9[/td][td]+11[/td][td]+3[/td][td]Improved Point of Attack[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]10[/td][td]+12[/td][td]+3[/td][td]Advanced Disarm[/td][/tr]
[/table]

Swordfighter: For the purposes of determining prerequisites for the Weapon Focus Tree, a fencer's class levels stack with any fighter levels he may already have. If he doesn't have any fighter levels, (good luck with that) his fencer levels count as fighter levels.

Additionally, a fencer may not use any of the abilities or feats granted by this class, excepting improved initiative, unless he is wielding a bastard sword with two hands, or with one hand and nothing in his other.

Point of Attack (Ex): At 2nd level, the fencer may deal his choice of piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage with a bastard sword. He must choose what type of damage he will deal before he makes his attack. He must be wearing heavy armor to use this ability.

Improved Disarm: At 3rd level, the fencer gains Improved Disarm as a bonus feat. If the fencer already has Improved Disarm, he may select another feat from the fighter bonus feat list.

Improved Initiative: At 5th level, the fencer gains Improved Initiative as a bonus feat. If the fencer already has Improved Initiative, he may select another feat from the fighter bonus feat list.

Sword Grapple (Ex) : At 6th level, the fencer may use a bastard sword in a grapple with no penalties.

Advanced Feint (Ex) : At 7th level, it becomes difficult to determine where the fencer's next attack is coming from. While wearing heavy armor, a fencer may feint once per turn as a free action.

Improved Point of Attack (Ex) : At 9th level, the fencer may use a bastard sword as a double weapon. If he does this, his primary attacks deal 1d10 damage and he gains an offhand attack which deals 1d8 damage. While using a bastard sword in this manner, he gains the benefits of the two-weapon fighting feat. He must be wearing heavy armor to use this ability.

Advanced Disarm (Ex) : At 10th level, if the fencer succeeds in a disarm attempt against an opponent, he immediately gets a melee attack against that opponent as if he hadn’t used his attack for the disarm attempt.
[hr]

So there she is. The prereqs are steeper than you think. Comments are appreciated, as is criticism.

Edit: forgot an important prereq! Edit 2: Fixes

[Goumindong]

Broken. :o

[Sciurusaurus]

Quick read looks good, however, you might want to specify damage tyoes (S/B/P) from Point of Attack, so you don't end up with ridiculous requests for fire, cold or even sonic damage ;)

[bosssmiley]

Reinventing the wheel.

See Duellist (SRD), Kensei (OA or CW?), Swashbuckler (CW), or even just a vanilla light-armoured Fighter with Exotic WProf: bastard sword + Wpn Focus/Spec tree.

Too much potential for brokenness in the hands of optimizers.

[Azrael]

Yeah, no. A bastard sword only class? Why limit it? There isn't any good reason that I can see. Plus, if you require the exotic weapon prof, that allows the character to wield in one hand -- the only reasons they'd use 2 if for the 1.5*str damage.

Plus, eventually treating a normal sword as a double weapon? Ridiculous. And having the damage reduced to d8? If you really love the idea, it needs TONS of work. A freebie iterative attack would be a FAR better mechanic. And honestly, that's an 8-10th level type feature. Look at Dervish for examples.

I think you've missed the concept of a character that is devoted to their chosen weapon -- so devoted that they are worthy of the extra BAB. I think that things like greater weapon spec/improved weapon focus/improved crit would be better features -- but those are already available to a straight fighter.

Improved feint and grapple as pre-reqs are clearly there only for your improved versions as class features-- but why would a tried and true sword master ever take (or want to take) those feats?

Perhaps a crit multiplier increase, an inverse-combat expertise, an improved power attack (a 1.5:1 ratio for instance) and maybe better damage (whether treated as a weapon of 1 category larger, or dealing 1.5 str even in one hand?) would be better choices (only one of two of them, mind you) to round it out.

Look at sword & fist, complete warrior. There are ample precedents for these types of features. And give it a better name, better text and an "I really love my chosen weapon (not just a B.Sword) a whole frikking lot" type flavor.