Any way to balance 3.5 core only?

[Vorpal word]

Recently I have run into some major PC balance problems in 3.5 D&D. Myself and my players are high schoolers and have been playing for around two years, but no campaign we have had so far has lasted longer than five sessions.

I've decided to try and run a campaign to last, but I find myself bogged down after our fifth session. I've already had numerous player changes, and as of right now two of the group's 4 level 4 characters are alright. Out of the other two, one is an orc barbarian with 22 Strength (we rolled stats), and the other is a warmage. I've already had several arguments with the warmage's player as I prefer to play purely core games (I don't own anything outside of core other than MM3).

However, I've noticed that while out-of-core feats and classes don't balance with core, core doesn't balance with itself either. Alignment restrictions and weak classes/feats (like Fighter and Toughness, respectively) make it impossible to really have a balanced game with just pure core.

Therefore, I've been wondering if there are any simple ways to deal with this double problem (unbalanced non-core classes and core not balanced with itself). I've considered Pathfinder, but since it's "backwards-compatible" with 3.5 the aforementioned player will soon start nagging about it. Is there any other solution out there?

[Indon]

First off, don't roll stats, or else you'll basically always have one or two players who're disproportionately effective and one or two who're always disprorportionately weak as a result of their die rolls.

Edit: Use the point buy variant in the DMG.

[Farlion]

Hmmm... well.

First thing: Don't roll stats. Use Pointbuy system. ( got ninjad on that)

Second thing: How do you define balance? Do your players kill each other? Do your players measure balance in how many kobolds they can kill each round?

Fact is (and most people here agree on this) core is not really balanced in any way. Most of D&D is not balanced on a PvP level. ToB solves some issues, but in late game, casters are just way ahead of any fighting class.

Cheers,
Farlion

[Flickerdart]

Don't worry about the Warmage, first of all. Without Rainbow Servant shenanigans, Warmages are considered weak, if not the weakest full casting class. The 22 STR Barbarian, however, is going to rule combat, even though he's purely Core. What are your other players?

[Gorbash]

First off, don't roll stats, or else you'll basically always have one or two players who're disproportionately effective and one or two who're always disprorportionately weak as a result of their die rolls.

Edit: Use the point buy variant in the DMG.

Although, it's quite fun to be the one who has disproportionately high scores. And Point buy sometimes doesn't allow you to play builds which you could have pulled off with a few lucky rolls...

[Skjaldbakka]

First, I would highly recommend looking at Pathfinder, as it tries to do what you are trying to do, and IIRC, the download is still free. You don't have to run it necessarily, but picks its brains so to speak.

Second, don't worry too much about the warmage class, it is better at dealing direct damage with spells, which is essentially what you want casters to do, game balance wise. Spellcasters that focus on dealing damage come closest into line with the other classes than other playstyles. Just make sure to mix in as many encounters with energy resistance as you do DR and you'll be fine.

Third - here are some suggestions along the lines of alterations, some extreme, some minor.

Skill Aptitude Feats (Alertness, Athletic, etc.)
-either get rid of these feats altogether, or improve the benefit. You don't want a bigger number, because they grant the right bonus for a low level character. I'd recommend that these feats make the skills they give bonuses to class skills as well.

Toughness
-make this feat give +3 hp, and +1 hp/level

Endurance/Diehard.
-roll these together into one feat. when you pick up the books that have heat endurance, cold endurance, etc, roll them into this feat as well. diehard isn't powerful enough to merit a feat, IMO, and the environmental stuff doesn't come up often enough to take multiple feats for it.

Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes
- Improving these feats would require some kind of scaling bonus. Maybe boost them to +4 once you hit 10th level. Or +2 per additional 10 levels, if you plan to break the L20 bubble.

Skill Focus
- I'd improve the bonus at level 10 to +6, and make it grant the skill as a class skill.

Fighter:
There are lots of fixes to the fighter floating around these boards. my solution is to give them Special Abilities, along the same manner of the rogue.

The abilities I let them choose from:

-Strength Domain power, using fighter levels instead of cleric levels.
-Celerity 1/day
-Mettle
-Stand Tough (Defensive Roll with Fort, basically) 1/day
-Shrug it Off (Slippery Mind for Necromancy and Transmutation effects that allow a Fort save)

Monk:
There are a lot of monk fixes as well, here is mine:

-Flurry of blows is a standard action
-Add wisdom to hit with monk weapons
-Use a Ki pool for stunning fist, abundant step, and other 1/day or x/day monk abilities
-replace slow fall with airwalk, using the same mechanics as the travel domain's freedom of movement ability

Druid:
I break Druid into two classes, one gets shapechanging and a full BAB, but no spells and no animal companion, and the other gets spellcasting and 1/2 BAB, but no shapechanging (but keeps the animal companion).

Cleric:
Is overpowered and difficult to fix.

Ranger/Paladin:
I make their spellcasting a swift action for all their spells.

Sorcerer/Wizard;
I use the gentleman's agreement. If you start pulling out unbalancing spells gratuitously, you start facing them.

[Tehnar]

Since you are the DM, you control the sources your players have access to. If you are not OK with them using things outside the core, then say so, and disallow those sources.

I allow and encourage players to roll their stats. I let my players have a choice of 5d6 or 32 point buy. I do this because if a player rolls great he can choose a MAD class (paladin, monk, etc) without regret, and if he rolls poorly he can choose a SAD class and not be restricted by his poor rolls.

In core there are a few things that are gamebreakingly unbalanced. Certain high level spells, items etc. However, most of these are known from forums only, and never come into actual play, or are easy enough for the DM to veto. Searching the forums a bit will let you find out what those things are. (Though I suggest you remove metamagic rods from your game).

There are things in the game that are unbalanced. A greatclub obviously is much weaker then a greatsword, and toughness compared to almost any other feat. Should those things be fixed? I don't think so. There are merits to them, as options for monsters, or RP opportunities.

If your players are fighting amongst themselves and you are trying to run a campaign at the same time, there is not a good way to solve that problem. I suggest you let them duke it out, and once they satisfy their bloodlust they will be ready for a cooperative campaign.

If you are having trouble with one class/player dominating your encounters, remember, you build those encounters. Most of the trouble usually comes when a party faces 1 monster, because cheesy tactics work best against solo monsters. Having multiple foes, of various roles in a encounter will make everyone feel like they are contributing, and make the fights more fun. Spicing up encounters with obstacles, traps, cover, concealment and various other features will allow diverse characters to shine. Also remember to play your monsters as smart as they are. Even 8 int orcs know enough that spellcasters tend to be a big threat, so focusing on those usually pays off.

[Kurald Galain]

Cleric:
Is overpowered and difficult to fix.

Depending on your group, you may be able to fix him (and the druid) by having his deity impose a certain ethos that he has to keep.

[Telonius]

I have several "quick and dirty" houserules that can restore a bit of balance.

Core Cleric fix: Erase "Cleric 4" from the Divine Power spell description. Use the Cloistered Cleric variant.

Core Druid fix: Use the Shapeshifter variant from PHB2.

Core Monk fix: Full BAB, enchant (only his own) fists and body as though he were a caster with Craft Magic Weapon/Armor.

Core Wizard/Sorcerer fix: remove several offending spells from the game (mainly the ones that make other classes obsolete, like Wind Wall, Detect Traps, etc.; as well as broken ones like the Polymorph line) as well as Craft Contingent Spell.

Core Paladin fix: More of a social balance fix than a mechanical one. Paladins take the alignment of their god or philosophy, and must act as an exemplar of that god or philosophy's views and goals. No restrictions on associating with opposite-alignment characters unless your god would absolutely prevent it in that situation. (For example, Hextor probably wouldn't allow his paladin to hang out with a Cleric of Hieronius for beer and pizza, but would encourage it if it's for the purpose of double-crossing him). Basically, remove the Paladin Stick class feature bug that makes it annoying to other players and DMs.

I honestly haven't had any balance problem with Barbarians, Rangers, Rogues, Fighters, or Bards in Core. They're at about the power level they ought to be. Fighters could possibly use some tweaks, but I mainly take care of that in houserules to feats; there are other Fighter fixes out there as well. The uber-ness of casters is toned down due to decreased spell selection, so the Fighter doesn't have as much trouble keeping up.

[Eldariel]

My quick'n'dirty fix:
-Get Tome of Battle for martial types (and use homebrew to fill in for the missing classes; Ranger & Barbarian aren't DIRECTLY in ToB, but they exist online; non-mystical Rogue is another thing to add - also, use a homebrew archery discipline)
-Ban/alter a bunch of spells:

Spoiler

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-Planar Binding-line
-Polymorph-line (and similar abilities such as Wildshape; Pathfinder has a decent patch for this, I like using it)
-Gate
-Time Stop
-Divine Power
-Knock/Find Traps/whatever; generally I just use scenarios planned around these spells so just about every lock/trap has accounted for them

-Improve a bunch of spells:

Spoiler

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-All damage-dealing spells of 3rd level or higher have an additional effect on failed save; Fireball knocks people prone and lights things on fire, Lightning Bolt dazes people for 1 round, Cone of Cold inflicts the "Slow"-condition for 1 round, higher level spells follow the suite based on element.

-Improve a bunch of (especially Fighter) feats, as listed in this thread. That's worked out fine for me, even without splats.

[Oslecamo]

My quick'n'dirty fix:
-Get Tome of Battle for martial types (and use homebrew to fill in for the missing classes; Ranger & Barbarian aren't DIRECTLY in ToB, but they exist online; non-mystical Rogue is another thing to add - also, use a homebrew archery discipline)

I believe that if people wanted everybody to worck the same way, they would've just gone playing 4e.

This is, the "sublime" ranger is nothing more than a warblade with a few diferent skills. Hardly worth the effort of reading the entire entry.

Also we really don't need any more "don't save, just suck" spells.

+1 to Kurald Galain's sugestion. If the deity that's granting you powers never asks anything of you in return , something is wrong. Just to be safe, force the cleric and druid to take dieties. No silly "I worship the concept of POWAH! It means I can do anything I like! MUAHAHAHA!" Oh, and I'm also LG btw. Here's a 30 pages essay on why burning and animating that orphanage was completely acording to my character's principles.

For the wizard, reduce downtime during campaign. You want to spend a week scribbing down stuff? Well, the gnolls are gonna raze down some dozen villages in the meantime, get stronger and the people of the city will hate you for that.

[ericgrau]

The #1 thing I think is to have a group that uses some common sense, doesn't try to exploit loopholes, etc. Most games I've been in or hear about try to limit munchkining to some degree and it seems to work out well enough to have a fun game for all. Inexperienced players sometimes suffer, but it seems to be regardless of class or build. I'd say anything else involves massive complication and would be a nightmare for most people to balance; usually they're more likely to screw something up than fix something.

I'm tempted to respond to homebrew rules, but I decided to refrain from anything major. So I'll just give my opinion on rolled stats vs. point buy since they're fairly equal in terms of balance, and thus this is more of an opinion. IMO point buy gives arrays that are too construed, almost always with an 8 and an 18, and even numbers. Ya, odd numbers are sometimes useful, but we all know that 90% of the time people go even. Rolled stats, while perhaps still lacking, are more natural. Statistically speaking, rolled stats don't often give characters extremely high or low rolls. A moderate set of rolls isn't totally unplayable compared to a high set, unless you're one of those players that absolutely must have an 18 just b/c it's the highest. An extremely low set gets a reroll per standard rules. The problem is that people often play with higher than normal roll methods, so no one rolls low enough for a standard reroll even though their roll might be relatively suckage. So when playing with high stats I propose that you change the rule so that you get a reroll if the total of your modifiers add up to +5 or less, rather than +0. If you roll a 14 for your high stat on standard rules, OTOH, just remember that 15.x is the average high stat, 14 is still well above non-heroes, and quit whining.

[Wulfram]

Easiest way - Remove Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Sorceror

[Mando Knight]

I've considered Pathfinder, but since it's "backwards-compatible" with 3.5 the aforementioned player will soon start nagging about it. Is there any other solution out there?

Pathfinder does not fix 3.5.

The best way to balance 3.5 is probably by using a case-by-case analysis.

Who are the other two characters? A heal-bot and an archer? A Fighter and a Sorcerer?

Why is the Barbarian a problem, other than that he smashes stuff to tiny pieces better than anyone else?
If his amount of stuff-smashing eclipses that of a lower-Strength melee character, encourage the other character to become a specialist in a different direction, or possibly have extra enemy archers spread out, firing arrows at the Barbarian as he tries to charge them down.
However, if that doesn't work, or you don't want to try that, perhaps begin using social skills more often, or include more puzzles that require literate characters. Barbarians (especially Orc ones) lag behind others significantly in that regard.

I don't have the book that the Warmage is in... but what kind of spells does he use? Blasty, AoE spells? Save-Or-This-Encounter-Is-Over-Already spells? Tailor your monsters' tactics to take the guy down, or at least to rely more on the other two characters. Use enemies with decent saves, bows, and HP, perhaps. (Ranger or high Cha Paladins... of Slaughter or Tyranny if it's a good campaign.)

More dragons tend to humble most characters. And Mindflayers. And Beholders. And Gelatinous Cubes. And Tucker's Kobolds.

[Draz74]

Is there any other solution out there?

Play E6?
...........

It's really a beautiful variant, and it probably comes closer to balancing Core than any other set of houserules that doesn't involve memorizing reams of paper.

[Kaiyanwang]

I don't have the book that the Warmage is in... but what kind of spells does he use? Blasty, AoE spells? Save-Or-This-Encounter-Is-Over-Already spells? Tailor your monsters' tactics to take the guy down, or at least to rely more on the other two characters. Use enemies with decent saves, bows, and HP, perhaps.

At this regard, I noticed that most casters really swear with outsiders. Mine, at least, most times try to control them the most they can, but are meleers that slaughter them.

If can be useful..

[Mastikator]

Use point buy and give different classes (and races?) modifiers to total points.
-
Cleric, Druid, Wizard -4
Sorceror -2
Rogue, Barbarian, Bard +2
Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Monk +4
-
Half-Elves +2

Also perhaps give them different amounts of begining currency. And make over-powered classes frowned upon culturally, while underpowered glorified. (paladins are perhaps seen as noble, while clerics as preachy? Druids as "dirty and uncivilized", etc)

Other than that I think you just have to keep in mind that they're not supposed to be equally powerful in all areas. Bards are SUPPOSED to be better in social situations than fighters. Fighters are SUPPOSED to be better in combat than rogues. With that in mind I think core is fairly balanced (at least with my modifications)

[Kantur]

Third - here are some suggestions along the lines of alterations, some extreme, some minor.

Skill Aptitude Feats (Alertness, Athletic, etc.)
-either get rid of these feats altogether, or improve the benefit. You don't want a bigger number, because they grant the right bonus for a low level character. I'd recommend that these feats make the skills they give bonuses to class skills as well.

Two thoughts I had on these feats:
The first is a bonus based on level (E.g. 1 per 4 levels, rounding up, plus one. So 2 at levels 1-4, 3 at 5-8, 4 at 9-12, 5 at 13-16 and finally 6 at 17-20)

The other thought I had was for the Skill Aptitude Feats to allow you to roll 2 dice and pick the highest for those two skills.

[Mastikator]

Another way is E6, the game is balanced between 1-6.

[Eldariel]

I believe that if people wanted everybody to worck the same way, they would've just gone playing 4e.

The only thing ToB maneuvers have in common with spells is how you gain them by levels. ToB maneuvers are more like melee maneuvers such as trip, grapple and company in that they're unlimited on per-day basis, you can recover them with relatively little effort and they're always available.

Spells are a daily resource you prepare in the morning. Also, maneuvers are extraordinary while spells are supernatural. I don't really see your problem here; you seem to be stuck on semantics. Maneuvers are just the same as normal melee attacks (in its 6 different guises), except there are more of them, the maneuvers have more variety and they force you to use more than one attack all game.

This is, the "sublime" ranger is nothing more than a warblade with a few diferent skills. Hardly worth the effort of reading the entire entry.

It's more a Ranger than a Warblade. The only equivalency is the maneuver recovery method. He still has the archery/TWF thing going on for him (although he obviously has much better options to go S&B now than standard Ranger), he still gets favored enemies, he still gets Ranger-skills (as opposed to Warblade-skills; Ranger is wilderness-focused while Warblade is more rounded) and he still has an animal companion, just like Ranger.

Would you claim Druid and Cleric are the same class just because they recover their spells the same way? 'cause that's how different the two classes are from each other.

Also we really don't need any more "don't save, just suck" spells.

I said "on a FAILED save"...

[Lycanthromancer]

My suggestion? Ditch core, for the most part. It's the absolutely least-well-balanced part of 3.x. I mean, it has both the monk and the wizard, fer crise-sakes.

Check out JaronK's tier system. It tells you which classes play good together, and which to avoid. I'd stay between tiers 2-3, myself (though I'd allow especially good optimizers to stray into tier 4, if they want to do so).

Replace most warrior classes with the wildshape ranger, psychic warrior, and ToB classes. Replace the skillmonkeys with factotums and beguilers. And replace spell-slingers with dread necromancers, psions, and favored souls.

You'll get your balance just fine, then.

[Doc Roc]

Scrubbed by poster. My opinions are not really helpful.

[Elminster1]

I agree with Eldariel about the spells for wizard/sorceror. I've considered a similar "fix". Basically to make damage dealing spells have their damage escalate, as well as have a secondary "effect", thus making it dualthreat. That is the basic dilemma in D&D, concerning magic. Effects are just better than damage overall. The only other way is damage dealing spells doing too much damage, thus another imbalance, against effect spells. So, having spells that deal damage, and have a secondary effect is far better. I think all of D&D combat magic would be better in this sense. You can still have effect magic, maybe more for personal and party buffing, like Fly, Invisibility, etc. Obviously, Polymorpth and it's ilk are out. But, the other buffs are suitable, and fun. Always keep Summons, thats a great way for casters to add flavor to their ability. I've expanded the Summons list to suit players who enjoy that, with great fun.

To keep it balanced, I think it's necessary to do that with casters, otherwise, they just rule, and make everyone feel lack luster, and that's no fun for anyone. This way, you keep the power of the casters, add some needed fixes that aren't hard, and encourage team play so that everyone has a great time.

[Indon]

I allow and encourage players to roll their stats. I let my players have a choice of 5d6 or 32 point buy. I do this because if a player rolls great he can choose a MAD class (paladin, monk, etc) without regret, and if he rolls poorly he can choose a SAD class and not be restricted by his poor rolls.

Wait, five six-sided dice? As in, up to a score of 30?

[Eldariel]

Wait, five six-sided dice? As in, up to a score of 30?

It's 5d6b3

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Recently I have run into some major PC balance problems in 3.5 D&D. Myself and my players are high schoolers and have been playing for around two years, but no campaign we have had so far has lasted longer than five sessions.

I've decided to try and run a campaign to last, but I find myself bogged down after our fifth session. I've already had numerous player changes, and as of right now two of the group's 4 level 4 characters are alright. Out of the other two, one is an orc barbarian with 22 Strength (we rolled stats), and the other is a warmage. I've already had several arguments with the warmage's player as I prefer to play purely core games (I don't own anything outside of core other than MM3).

However, I've noticed that while out-of-core feats and classes don't balance with core, core doesn't balance with itself either. Alignment restrictions and weak classes/feats (like Fighter and Toughness, respectively) make it impossible to really have a balanced game with just pure core.

Therefore, I've been wondering if there are any simple ways to deal with this double problem (unbalanced non-core classes and core not balanced with itself). I've considered Pathfinder, but since it's "backwards-compatible" with 3.5 the aforementioned player will soon start nagging about it. Is there any other solution out there?

What is the exact problem you are having with the warmage and 22 strength barbarian?

Is it that they are outshining the other players or are making mincemeat of your encounters? If that's the case, then all you need to do is design encounters that make the other characters shine, or in other words, encounters where the warmage and barbarian are not the effective by themselves. This will depend on the other party members of course.

But for ex, a party of low level drow, one of who is a wizard with sleep or hideous laugh or a cleric with hold person is one way to hit at the strength of each character, ie magic resistance for the warmage and a low will save for the barbarian.

[Indon]

It's 5d6b3

He didn't specify; I wanted to confirm from him.

[Vorpal word]

Don't worry about the Warmage, first of all. Without Rainbow Servant shenanigans, Warmages are considered weak, if not the weakest full casting class. The 22 STR Barbarian, however, is going to rule combat, even though he's purely Core. What are your other players?

An archer ranger and a druid, all level 4. The main problem with the warmage is not so much obvious balance as the fact that his player uses noncore spells and gives me no better explanation of them than a customized character sheet . Therefore, I find it hard to see exactly what his character can do.

As for the barbarian...at level 1 he critted a kobold for 54 damage

[Vorpal word]

Sorry about double-posting, but what really bothers me is that I can't really challenge them with a solo NPC boss, and using multiple NPCs or a monster isn't quite as fun and harder to fit with the plot. If I use a spellcaster they win initiative and slaughter him, and if I use a melee class they generally kill him at range in a couple of rounds. The best I've had was an Invisibility-using gnoll cleric who they thought had teleported away while they fought his minions. He eventually snuck up on them and knocked out the barbarian before they got him. However, the warmage and barbarian's players are STILL bugging me about how they should have heard his armor clanking while he was invisible (in the middle of combat) even though it's been two months since then.

Also, whenever I try to improve a weak class (like fighter), the warmage's player just tells me to use some other noncore class that I have no idea about and won't be able to view except online. Is there any way to deal with this?

[Gorbash]

Sorry about double-posting

Then why do it? There's a perfectly working 'edit' button.