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Thread: Redwall D20
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2005-12-03, 09:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Redwall D20
For a few days now, I've been mulling over the idea of trying to play the Redwall Series in D20, but I need help! I'll post what I have thought up so far:
Classes:
No Casters, of course, and little magic outside of dreams and spirits and such, and possibly some badger-forged weapons. The very limited magic that is in Redwall would have to be role played instead of class features. Here's the list of base classes that'd probably be needed:
Fighter could probably be used as-is.
Some sort of Geurilla Class
Some sort ofRanger Class
Healer (Mundane healing, of course)
Commoner
Expert
Some sort of Mundane Paladin type class
Rougeish class
Swashbuckling type fighter
Any others? I think there should be more, but it's quite possible that char development would depend much more on skills/roleplaying.
And for Prcs:
Badger Lord
Guisom Shrew
Skipper of the Otters
Log-A-Log
Foremole
Tracker
Long Patrol Hare
Of course, the leadership based PrC's could easily just be a roleplay aspect
Races: (all are ECL+0 unless otherwise noted)
Mouse:
Medium Beast
Base Speed of 30
+4 Skill points at level one and +1 skill point at each level after
One Extra feat at level one
Favored Class: Any
I thought that the Mice would be the general "average" PC, since that's basically them in the books.
Otter:
Medium Beast
Base Speed 30 and Swim Speed of 40
+2 Dex -2 Cha: Otters are skilled but are often gruff
+1 Racial bonus to fort saves: Otters are usually hardy
+4 Bonus to swim checks
Weapon Familiarity: All otters are proficient with slings (or, if all classes are already going to be proficient with simple weapons, then otters get weapon focus, but I feel this may be overpowered)
Favored Class:?
I think they might be able to use a bit more, but this is the general feel I am going for. Maybe they should also have some sort of familiarity with Javelins?
Hare:
Medium Beast
+2 Dex -2 Wis: Hares are skilled but often lack common sense
Base Speed 40
+2 Racial Bonus to Hide and Move Silently: Hares are skilled at avoiding detection
+2 Racial Bonus to Listen: Those ears aren't for show, wot wot!
Quick-Footed: Hares get the benefit of the Run Feat for free
Enormous appetite: Hares require twice the amount of food as other beasts their size
Favored Class: The ranger type class seems about right.
I don't know, it seems that they, like the otter, are missing something.
Hedgehog
Medium Beast
+2 Con -2 Dex: Hedgehogs can take a beating, but they tend to be a bit uncoordinated
Base Speed of 30
Spikes: Any beast attempting to grapple a hedgehog (except another Hedgehog) takes 1d6 piercing damage.
Curl: A hedgehog may, as a move equivalent action, curl into a tight ball, granting a +3 natural armor bonus but leaving the beat flat footed. If the hedgehog is rolled into an enemy somehow, he deals 1d6 damage.
Favored Class: ?
Badger
Large Beast
+4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha: Badgers are strong and tough but tend to be gruff.
Base Speed 40
+2 To will Saves
Bloodwrath(ex): Badgers can enter a rage once a day. The rage grants +4 Str and 2 temporary hit points/ char level but takes a -2 modifier to AC.The hit points aren't lost first but are taken away after the bloodwrath ends. A badger in bloodwrath must make a DC 15 will save to avoid attacking friends who get in the way of getting to the enemy.
A badger greatly wounded (to 1/4 hitpoints, maybe?) must make a DC 15 will save to avoid entering the bloodwrath involintarily.
A badger may end his bloodwrath prematurely with a DC 15 Will save. After the bloodwrath, a badger is winded for the remainder of the encounter.
Skilled Smith: Badgers recieve Craft(Armour) and Craft (Weaponsmith) as class skills if they aren't already.
Favored Class: A fighter like class, obviously.
ECL: +2
This seems to preserve the feel of badgers without making them too out of reach to have in a party if it doesn't start at level one.
Mole
Medium Beast
+2 Wis, -2 Int
Base speed 20'/Dig speed 20
Darkvision 60'
+2 Cultural bonus to Knowledge (Engineering and Architecture) checks.
Moles Recieve Stonecunning as a racial feature
Digging claws deal 1d4/x2 slashing damage.
Favored Class:?
Can't really say much more except that Molespeak might be an intresting in game effect-- maybe some sort of check to understand what a mole is saying?
Squirrel
Medium Beast
+2 Dex, -2 Con: Squirrels are agile but frail
Base Speed 30/Climb Speed 30
+1 Bonus to Reflex Saves
+4 Bonus to Climb checks.
+2 Bonus to Jump checks
+2 Bonus to Balance checks
Favored Class: ?
Shrew:
Medium beast
+2 Dex, -2 Cha: Shrews are skilled and agile, but are very argumentative.
Base Speed 30
+2 Bonus to Proffesion (Sailor). This applies to sea vessles as well as the log boats used by shrews.
Weapon Familiarity: Rapier. All shrews are trained in its use.
Favored Class: The Geurilla type class seems ideal, obviously.
I'll get to the vermin races later, probably tomorrow. I think I'll include ferrets, stoats, and weasels all in one set of stats, though.
Oh, and the stats for the Sword of Martin would probably be something along the lines of a +2 Bastard Sword with an Aura of Courage.
Challenges would mostly be against vermin instead of having lots of monsters, but there could be adders and birds of prey.
Thoughts are appreciated-- I haven't really played much DnD at all, so I'm just trying to do my best based off of reading and theory-- is anything overpowered? Underpowered? I want to try to keep most the races except for badgers and maybe some vermin away from LAs, so keep that in mind. If I have to, I can go with +1's, though. I am especially looking for help with classes(since the lack of magic makes the standard classes fairly unuseable), but any help at all would be most appreciated.
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2005-12-03, 10:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
Oh dear lordie...
Umm... good luck?
Seriously, I can't think of anything constructive to say, just kinda impressed (although I shouldn't be surprised) that someone would get around to making a d20 for Redwall...1. Have fun. It's only a game.
2. The GM has the final say. Everyone else is just a guest.
3. The game is for the players. A proper host entertains one's guests.
4. Everyone is allowed an opinion. Some games are not as cool as they seem.
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2005-12-03, 11:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
Cool. I definitly like. Would the monks of the abbey be healers? I think Commoners and Experts aren't really worh mentioning as base classes. Might also make Abbot, and Redwall Champion PrC's too.
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2005-12-03, 11:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
Well, I don't know much about Redwall, but I do know that a Squirrel character really shouldn't be able to climb faster than he can run...
"I start dashing along the wall to catch up with him!" and what-not.
The otter's swim speed seems similarly strange, but not as easy to abuse.
Also, Rabbits make for incredible archery-base rangers, with or without that being their favored class. The increased appetite is a big drawback for surviving in the wild, (can they eat grass? ;D) but their good dex and great speed, plus stealth and listen bonuses, mean they can avoid ambushes, ambush in turn, and dominate skirmishes.\"Kobold castles: They don\'t have to be very big! ...or very good.\"
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2005-12-03, 11:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
Hmm. Maybe one of the classes should be sort of like the scout from CAd. Anyhow, I think badgers seem a little underpowered for a +2 LA. Compare them to a Golaith, which is +1 LA. Maybe make them stronger, or give them some natural armor.
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2005-12-04, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
Oh dear lordie...
Umm... good luck?
Seriously, I can't think of anything constructive to say, just kinda impressed (although I shouldn't be surprised) that someone would get around to making a d20 for Redwall...
Cool. I definitly like. Would the monks of the abbey be healers? I think Commoners and Experts aren't really worh mentioning as base classes. Might also make Abbot, and Redwall Champion PrC's too.
Well, I don't know much about Redwall, but I do know that a Squirrel character really shouldn't be able to climb faster than he can run...
"I start dashing along the wall to catch up with him!" and what-not.
The otter's swim speed seems similarly strange, but not as easy to abuse.
Also, Rabbits make for incredible archery-base rangers, with or without that being their favored class. The increased appetite is a big drawback for surviving in the wild, (can they eat grass? ) but their good dex and great speed, plus stealth and listen bonuses, mean they can avoid ambushes, ambush in turn, and dominate skirmishes.
Hmm. Maybe one of the classes should be sort of like the scout from CAd. Anyhow, I think badgers seem a little underpowered for a +2 LA. Compare them to a Golaith, which is +1 LA. Maybe make them stronger, or give them some natural armor.
I think you're probably right about Badgers... what if I gave them +2 wisdom and the benefit of the toughness feat for free? Too much? Too little? Of course, I could always just reduce them to LA +1, which would open them up a bit more for PCs. (Of course, the DM would still want to be careful about allowing PCs to be badgers anyway.... they'd have to trust the player not to steal the spotlight too much.)
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2005-12-04, 01:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
The dig speed for moles seems unreasonable.They are good tunnellers, but probably not THAT good.
As for badgers, give them powerful boosts and a high LA; they deserve it. Badgers are incredibly powerful.
You might want to bear in mind that almost everything that will be encountered, except for a few exceptions such as birds, will be humaniod. You might actually want to fully define every species as a possible pc, since evil campaigns would lend themselves well to this setting. Just be very, very careful about letting parties mix together vermin and non-vermin.
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2005-12-04, 01:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
For badgers being extremely powerful, I was thinking that a lot of that would be covered in the Badger Lord PrC-- in game terms, just about all the badgers in the books were high level badger lords. However, I might combine this with just making the race extremely powerful. And I think you're right, I'll adjust the mole's tunnel speed.
I also agree about mixing vermin and non vermin. I can only think of one case in the books where a vermin ended up not being evil, his name was Blaggut, as I recall. (I forget which one he was in, but he ended killing his captain)
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2005-12-04, 07:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
I think Badgers need to be absurdly powerful.They shouldn't be PCs, though, ever. And, of course, they should be on a level with Wildcats. Martin (a 20th-level character if there ever was one) only just managed to kill a wildcat, and nearly died in the attempt. Badgers have only ever died by assassination, a fight with a wildcat, or being swarmed by hundreds of vermin.
And you neeed a Marlfox PrC. Rogues with axes...Catapultam habeo. Nisi omniam pecuniam mihi dabis, saxum immanem ad caput tuum mittam.
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2005-12-04, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
Originally Posted by Blade-Bearer_IanAvatar done by idksocrates!
DM: You wake up in a room somewhat similar to the one you passed out in, except brighter, and cleaner.
Me: I check for my kidneys.
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2005-12-04, 09:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
Just a few suggestions.
I would probably not give straight weapon proficiencies to any of the woodland races as in the novels ive read most woodlanders had very specific weapons they liked to use. Maybe something like weapon focus with their racial weapons but extra penalties for using non proficient weapons.
Anyway heres some suggestions for racial weapons
Mice - Quarterstaff, Sling, Short Bow
Squirrels - Longbow, Javelin
Otters - Javelin, Sling, Shortspear
Hares - Composite Longbow(based off the Longbows used by Colonel Clary and Friends in Mariel Of Redwall), Longspear, Shortspear, Quarterstaff, Short Sword, Long Sword, Sling, Dagger(They do recieve a lot of military training and constantly practice so i thought it was fair to give them a bit more)l
Moles - Claw, Club, Warhammer, Flail (Based on the Mallet and Flail wielders in the novel with Urgan Nagru the Fox Wolf), Sling
Shrew - Rapier, Sling, Dagger
Hedgehog - Club, Sling, Great club (Havent really seen them use any other weapons)
Badgers - All Simple and Martial weapons (they are supposed to be great warriors after all)
Vermin characters should probably get more general proficiencies as in the novels they're generally armed with a wide variety of weapon types. The other way you could do it would be to say they were proficient with whatever weapons they start out with.
Stat wise the badger does seem underpowered compared to how they appear in the novels. I agree with Jathki on this point , badgers should be incredibly powerful compared to anyone else as several times throughout the series its pretty much them on their own or with a small group of allies versus a vermin horde and they either win or inflict massive casualties before dying.
The only other thing i can think of at the moment is that maybe hedgehogs should have a natural armour bonus anyway, maybe +1 or +2, and curling up increases it rather than granting it.
Other than that it looks great, good luck with getting it off the ground.Maybe Life Better with Sprinkles?
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2005-12-04, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
I don't think I want to limit the weapons that much, I mean, mice don't get swords, meaning Martin was being rather foolish weilding his legendary weapon! And I suppose I'll change the badger a bit, I just liked the idea that a good Roleplayer (one that the DM KNOWS would never munchkin or steal the spotlight) could play a badger in a slightly higher campaign. Though, I suppose if they're made more powerful, they still could be used in high level campaigns.
EDIT:
And you neeed a Marlfox PrC. Rogues with axes...
EDIT2:
What if badgers had the following racial features:
Badger Weapon
Badgers have one weapon they use beyond all others, usually a weapon that others cannot even lift. A badger uses a weapon sized for huge beasts. Badgers generally choose weapons such as greatswords or greataxes. In addition, a badger the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization Feats fo free with his chosen weapon.
Call of the Mountain
In a time of Need, a Badger might recieve a call from Salamandastron. He can instinctively head the way he needs to go to get to Salamandastron, even if he doesn't know where it is. Additionally, the call might pull him further from it first if there is a need to gather an army.
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2005-12-04, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
I just had a thought. Is Gullwhacker improvised? Is it still improvised after being used for however long it was used?
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2005-12-04, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
Sorry i should have been more clear. I was thinking more along the lines of what they would know how to use when they started out. I'm not saying those are the only weapons they should be able to use, just that those seem the best proficiencies for them to start with based on what I've read. Nothing to stop them taking more proficiencies later, after all even Martin had to take a few lessons before he got really good with his sword.
EDIT
With the point you raised about Badger Weapons maybe instead of a special skill simply have it as a new class of item, sort of like a further improvement over master crafted. If its going to be a very low magic system then item quality obviously becomes a much more decisive factor.
Ive also been giving some thought to what Blade Bearer Ian said about the seer type characters that pop up occasionally (Mangiz being a case in point). Perhaps the Adept NPC class with a modified spell list might be a way to show that within the game without unbalancing it.
hope this helps.Maybe Life Better with Sprinkles?
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2005-12-04, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
A badger doesn't have to be the lord of Salamandastron. What about Orlando the Axe? You could have a badger PC, that's got a high LA, I'm thinking ~3, and have the lord of Salamandastron be someone different.
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2005-12-04, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
Originally Posted by Omniplex
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2005-12-04, 02:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
Originally Posted by Zangor
That reminds me, the regions not immediatly surrounding Mossflower are not very well defined. The books involving other regions have them mapped, but has a map showing everything ever been published?
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2005-12-04, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
Well, a lot of it depends on the time period, but as far as I know, there haven't been any. That being said, I think somebody could put maps together well enough to make a basic campaign map.
EDIT: Here's my first try at vermin stats:
Rat
Medium Vermin
+2 Con -2 Int
Base Speed 30
+2 Cultural Bonus to intimidate
Recieves the Benefit of toughness at first level.
Favored Class:?
Weasel/Ferret/Stoat (They're similar enough that I think they can use the same stats)
Medium Vermin
+2 Dex +2 Con -2 Wis -2 Cha
Base Speed 30
+4 Bonus to Escape Artist
+2 Bonus to Hide
Favored Class:?
Fox:
Medium Vermin
+2 Wis -2 Cha
Base Speed 30
Low Light Vision
+4 Cultural Bonus to Bluff
+2 Additional Bonus to Bluff checks for Secret Messages
Favored Class: ?
Wildcat:
Large Vermin
+4 Str +2 Con +2 Int
Base Speed: 40
+2 Racial Bonus to Spot and Listen
+2 Bonus to Intimidate Checks
Two claws: 1d6 each
Bite: 2d4
Favored Class:?
ECL: I'll try to put this near where the badger ends up.
Now, what should I add to the wildcat to strenghten it? (And to the badger, for that matter)
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2005-12-04, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
Originally Posted by JothkiCatapultam habeo. Nisi omniam pecuniam mihi dabis, saxum immanem ad caput tuum mittam.
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2005-12-04, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
Probably a flail-ish weapon, dealing bludgeoning damage, maybe give it "optional reach" like a spiked chain...
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2005-12-04, 05:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
Originally Posted by Jothki
Man this thing was full of outdated stuff.
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Avatar by me.
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2005-12-04, 05:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
Hmmm. A lack of magical healing is going to be kinda tough on PCs though, isn't it? They're going to have a hard time in combat-heavy campaigns. A healer-type class wouldn't be able to immediatly heal people without magical means, so it would be largly limited, it seems, to healers excelerating HP gained from bedrest. Well, that's all I can think of them being able to do.
Maybe it should be harder to hit characters at all?
Heyy. It's that frog. Fantastic.
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2005-12-04, 05:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
I'd say for classes you could use:
Barbarian
Fighter
Rogue (This could be both guerilla/roguish character, if not use scout from CAd)
Swashbuckler(from CW)
Ranger (Make ability to substitute for Animal Companion)
Paladin (This would be tough to do without any magic and with the ride skill being negligible. Maybe just have anyone who wants a paladin be a LG fighter, instead, that works.)
What to do for a healer, I have no idea.
Commoner and Expert would be NPC classes, just like in DMG.Cardinal Ximinez by Mephibosheth
Originally Posted by SisquiOriginally Posted by Jozef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski
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2005-12-04, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
Originally Posted by HoosierDaddy
That reminds me, a Champion of Redwall PrC really couldn't have any level-based prereqs, considering the variety of backgrounds of the holders of the title.
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2005-12-04, 06:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
I would say the requirement would be: must either possess, or undertake a quest to find, the sword of martin.
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2005-12-04, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
Originally Posted by Omniplex
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2005-12-04, 11:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
Originally Posted by Zangor
What would be the abilities? My thought would be standard fighter-ish but with the ability to either reroll a die or shift the result a bit.
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2005-12-04, 11:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
Maybe it could be like one of those Weapon Associated Prestive classes in Unearthed Arcana: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/ma...tm#battleScion
Not sure what the abilities would be, but some of them might me fairly supernatural.This above message may or may not
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2005-12-04, 11:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
I'm also in the crowd of making Badgers strong, but not quite demigods... leaving the demigodness for the Badger Lord PrC. ^_^
Orlando the Axe was (If we were analyzing the book from a purely mechanical level) rather useless for the majority of it until it came down to killing things, in which he finally was able to actively do something. Badger Lords tend to be rather useful the entire time.
...minus bloodwrath. So probably keep them with a 2-3 LA for Badgers, and make the PrC the scary bit.
May I also mention, this rocks as an idea. ^_^ Redwall is awesome.Beginnings usually happen over trifles... even if it's a coincidence...
~ Final Fantasy Tactics
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2005-12-05, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redwall D20
Man, I haven't read the Redwall books in ages. Favourite is still Martin the Warrior. Anyway, I did notice this while lurking at WOTC. Might be helpful.