[3.5]Wilder

[Arakune]

What are the most popular wilder build? Also, there are any builds that use the massive cha?

[Eldariel]

Check this out.

[Arakune]

Check this out.

Thanks, but already know that thread. Horever, there are more kinds of builds or the best one are all gishes? The social wilder is a little bit lacking in material.

[quick_comment]

A trick is to use psychic chuirugy to learn more powers.

[Eldariel]

Thanks, but already know that thread. Horever, there are more kinds of builds or the best one are all gishes? The social wilder is a little bit lacking in material.

The Social Wilder is much like the Social Sorcerer; sure, you have the stat down, but you don't have the skills. To rub it in, even the Sorcerer has a way larger array of means to expand their skill list, thanks to getting more support overall. The only major boons in comparison to Sorcerer in this regard are the 4+Int skillpoints and Sense Motive in class.

You still want Diplomacy and Gather Information before even thinking about making a social monkey, and Knowledge (Local) and Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) wouldn't hurt either. You basically need to burn a feat per skill if you want to do it without dipping (see this thread for the simple ways of getting the class skills through feats), making it very painful to do vast skill list expansions.


But yeah, Wilder is definitely at its best as a Gish, getting 9th level powers, medium BAB, decent proficiencies and so on. As a straight manifester, he's just a horrible Psion due to lack of direct access to discipline powers and an awful little in terms of Powers Known, and socially his skill list catches up to him (the Compendium suggests just using powers like Charms to bring your Cha-checks to bear, which works out just fine but costs you some of your very few Powers Known and isn't nearly always doable or something you even want to try in social settings).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The Social Wilder is much like the Social Sorcerer; sure, you have the stat down, but you don't have the skills. To rub it in, even the Sorcerer has a way larger array of means to expand their skill list, thanks to getting more support overall. The only major boons in comparison to Sorcerer in this regard are the 4+Int skillpoints and Sense Motive in class.

The problem isn't social skills, it's skill points. A human Sorcerer can't afford above about a 12 in Int(you already need massive Cha, moderate Dex, moderate Con), so you're looking at <=4 skills/level. You need K:Arcane, Spellcraft, and Conc, so you have maybe 1 point/level for social skills. As a non-human or at a pt-buy of less than 28, you're pretty much not going to get enough to be any sort of a social monkey.
Wilder is better off because you can afford Psicraft, K:psi, and conc with an 8 in Int. Human with Int 12 is looking at being able to get 3 social skills maxed. Even if they're cross-class, you're still better off than the Sorc.

[Eldariel]

The problem isn't social skills, it's skill points. A human Sorcerer can't afford above about a 12 in Int(you already need massive Cha, moderate Dex, moderate Con), so you're looking at <=4 skills/level. You need K:Arcane, Spellcraft, and Conc, so you have maybe 1 point/level for social skills. As a non-human or at a pt-buy of less than 28, you're pretty much not going to get enough to be any sort of a social monkey.
Wilder is better off because you can afford Psicraft, K:psi, and conc with an 8 in Int. Human with Int 12 is looking at being able to get 3 social skills maxed. Even if they're cross-class, you're still better off than the Sorc.

Compared to a Bard's social skills, you'll still be left in the dust.

[Tempest Fennac]

Are Arcana and Spellcraft that important for Sorcerers, Sstoopidtallkid? Beyond those being needed for Epic casting, I tend not to see them as being that useful for Sorcerers unless you want to counterspell a lot.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Are Arcana and Spellcraft that important for Sorcerers, Sstoopidtallkid? Beyond those being needed for Epic casting, I tend not to see them as being that useful for Sorcerers unless you want to counterspell a lot.

Assuming you're the only arcanist in the party, they might not be vital, but you definitely want someone who can figure out what the Lich just buffed himself with. If you've got a Cleric, you can drop the Spellcraft, but someone needs K:Arc since the worst enemies in the game fall under that, and it's probably going to be you.

And yes, Bards do it better. The point is Wilders are at least better than the core Cha-caster at using Cha-skills.

[Zaq]

It's possible to play a hyper-focused manifester Wilder. They're weak compared to Psions and Ardents, sure, but you can make them work if you're willing to accept a little tunnel vision. In particular, Astral Construct (with or without the Constructor prestige class found on the WotC site) can make you reasonably effective, and has enough versatility that you're slightly less boring. You still greatly lack versatility, but you've at least got enough tricks that you're not worthless. You just have to pick your powers known really, really carefully. And take lots and lots of Expanded Knowledge.

They're always going to be inferior to a Psion as a non-gish goes, but they're not useless. 9th level spells (okay, powers) still mean a hell of a lot, even when you only get one or two.

It's kind of like the Shugenja in that it's a weaker copy of something else, but unlike the Shugenja, at least the Wilder has a trick or two that can't be easily replicated. Sure, that's not amazing, but they still don't suck.

[quick_comment]

Question: Does wild surge pay for the entire augmentation cost, or just the extra bit allowed by the surge?

[erikun]

The wild surge pays for the additional manifester level supplied by the surge, no more. To quote the SRD:

"Instead, the additional 1 power point that would normally be required to augment the power is effectively supplied by the wild surge."

Please note this is talking about the +1 manifester level you get from first level. Higher level Wilders using higher level surges would get higher level manifesting "for free".

So a 19th level Wilder, who can surge for +6, would only need to spend 19 PP to augment a power up to a 25 PP-level.