Character Concept: deadly at any range

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, I had an idea for a character: Be lethal at any range. Also, not a primary caster or extreme UMD cheeze to emulate 'batman wizard lite'. A couple of tricks are okay, but not the whole shebang.

My idea was to combine your typical TWF build (rogue/swordsage/bloodclaw master) with Bloodstorm Blade4 to be able to rapid-fire throw his daggers (which are both shadow hand and tiger claw weapons). He'd use tactics like Pounce to close to melee when possible. When against opponents he cannot reach in that manner, or if he already used that ability and doesn't have the time to refresh, he'd resort to ranged attacks.

My problem is thus: Bloodstorm Blade requires Iron Heart, which Swordsages don't get. Should I dip a level of Warblade, or blow feats? I'm already pretty feat-tight, since I'm going Strongheart Halfling, I am using Strength as a dump stat, using Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse to replace Str entirely with Dex. I've got the entire TWF chain. And I need another feat to get into Bloodstorm Blade (Point Blank Shot) making it a three-feat entry requirement without a level dip in Warblade. I won't be able to do it through Master of Nine, that's got WAY too many feat requirements, plus maneuver requirements I won't be able to meet with a simple two-level dip in Swordsage.

He'll have Gravestrike/golemstrike/vinestrike wands available to counter precision-immune bases. Much as I would love to give him Shards of Granite, it requires a Str of 13+ for Stone Power, so that's out the window. Pity, I guess I'll just have to power through DR I can't bypass.

So, you think the build is viable? Am I nuts?

[quick_comment]

Just get a bow and use arrowmind. It lets you take AoOs around you and makes it so you dont provoke when you use it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Just get a bow and use arrowmind. It lets you take AoOs around you and makes it so you dont provoke when you use it.

Because... I get twice as many attacks with TWF, and thus twice the damage output?

And because I can use Pouncing Strike to full TWF on surprise round, and use Island of Blades to flank for more sneak attacks? Honestly, the ranged deadly thing is the part I'm trying to tack on to the TWF build, not the other way 'round. I'll have to find some way of making my opponent flat-footed (unless my buddy Warblade is kind enough to use Clarion Call to declare him flanked) to be able to sneak attack at range.

[quick_comment]

Because... I get twice as many attacks with TWF, and thus twice the damage output?

Splitting arrows, split arrow spell, and a bunch of other stuff says otherwise

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Splitting arrows, split arrow spell, and a bunch of other stuff says otherwise

Bloodstorm Blade letting you Power Attack at range has yet a third opinion.

@Shneekey: Go with the Warblade level. You get +1 BAB, save boost, and an extra 2 maneuvers in addition to the required IH one. You said you don't have the Str 13 for Stone Power...well, hate to tell you this, but if you don't have a high Str and Power Attack as a Bloodstorm Blade, you might as well go with quick_comment's suggestion. Shadow Blade is nice, but the +3-+7 you can add to damage with that is outpaced quickly by the amount you could deal if you traded Weapon Finesse for Power attack and Shadow Blade for Shards of Granite and added a wraithstrike wand to PA against touch AC.

With Bloodstorm Blade, there's no reason to use Dex over Str except for improved defenses and initiative--the reason most people take it is exactly because they want to have good ranged attacks and good Str. If you picked up Improved Initiative and used your 2 extra Warblade maneuvers for Action Before Thought and Wall of Blades (thus replacing one Ref save with Concentration, powered by your should-be-high Con and replacing AC vs. one attack with an attack roll, effectively getting Str to AC for 1 attack) you'd be at nearly the same effectiveness defensively (unless you're mobbed by mooks with area spells) and vastly better offense.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Splitting arrows, split arrow spell, and a bunch of other stuff says otherwise

Splitting is cheezy and makes catgirls cry.

Bloodstorm Blade letting you Power Attack at range has yet a third opinion.

@Shneekey: Go with the Warblade level. You get +1 BAB, save boost, and an extra 2 maneuvers in addition to the required IH one. You said you don't have the Str 13 for Stone Power...well, hate to tell you this, but if you don't have a high Str and Power Attack as a Bloodstorm Blade, you might as well go with quick_comment's suggestion. Shadow Blade is nice, but the +3-+7 you can add to damage with that is outpaced quickly by the amount you could deal if you traded Weapon Finesse for Power attack and Shadow Blade for Shards of Granite and added a wraithstrike wand to PA against touch AC.

With Bloodstorm Blade, there's no reason to use Dex over Str except for improved defenses and initiative--the reason most people take it is exactly because they want to have good ranged attacks and good Str. If you picked up Improved Initiative and used your 2 extra Warblade maneuvers for Action Before Thought and Wall of Blades (thus replacing one Ref save with Concentration, powered by your should-be-high Con and replacing AC vs. one attack with an attack roll, effectively getting Str to AC for 1 attack) you'd be at nearly the same effectiveness defensively (unless you're mobbed by mooks with area spells) and vastly better offense.

With enough sneak attack, TWFing will be dishing out almost as much damage. Also, you can TWF thrown weapons, and you can initiate maneuvers through them as well with Bloodstorm Blade.

You seem to be missing the point. The point is a precision-based damage TWF damage dealer who can also dish out the same damage at range by throwing. Not a ranged Ubercharger.

[Curmudgeon]

Splitting is cheezy and makes catgirls cry.

I just don't understand this opinion. Splitting seems like a perfectly reasonable way of getting double damage at range. The melee fighter has

• charging with a lance
• Power Attack with a 2-handed weapon
• Bless Weapon + Improved Critical

The spellcaster has

• Split Ray
• Twin Spell
• Repeat Spell

Why the hate for ranged attackers doing some extra damage?

[Riffington]

Why the hate for ranged attackers doing some extra damage?

The hate isn't for the quantity of damage, it's for some combination of:
*power coming more from equipment than from class abilities
*an arrow just turned into two arrows wtf?

There would not be hate for more archery feats.

[Curmudgeon]

The hate isn't for the quantity of damage, it's for some combination of:
*power coming more from equipment than from class abilities

So you'd hate it if somebody put all their gp into a magic lance, and then charged with it? That requires no class abilities -- not even any feats.

Seems like an irrational prejudice to me.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

You seem to be missing the point. The point is a precision-based damage TWF damage dealer who can also dish out the same damage at range by throwing. Not a ranged Ubercharger.

I'm not missing the point at all--you can TWF with precision damage and also get the benefits of Power Attack. If you're dumping Strength and not using any melee abilities on your weapons, why are you even going into Bloodstorm Blade?

You can chuck daggers all day without needing any of its abilities; you can get the same result if you have a bunch of returning daggers as if you have two daggers and Lightning Richochet, and though the returning weapons might be more expensive you're sinking 3 levels of stuff you don't use that could easily be used otherwise before you get anything useful, which is a long time in actual play. If nothing else, you could use one of those levels for sorcerer to be able to cast the X-strike spells yourself without UMD and pick up Arcane Strike to boost damage, or Duskblade 3 for Arcane Channeling.

[Riffington]

So you'd hate it if somebody put all their gp into a magic lance, and then charged with it? That requires no class abilities -- not even any feats.

Seems like an irrational prejudice to me.

I don't hate on magic bows in general, just magic bows with one specific enhancement that is much more powerful than comparable-cost enhancements.

Maybe if you have a charge build using multiple dancing lances I can hate it?

[Frosty]

I don't hate on magic bows in general, just magic bows with one specific enhancement that is much more powerful than comparable-cost enhancements.

Maybe if you have a charge build using multiple dancing lances I can hate it?

Damnit, now I am reminded of Arthur from Ghosts and Goblins again! He's effective at any range too I suppose.

[Curmudgeon]

Maybe if you have a charge build using multiple dancing lances I can hate it?

You don't need dancing, and it's not too difficult to come up with something powerful using lances.

A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. It has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe.

While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand.

So you can charge with a lance in each hand. You just need some version of pounce (Two-Weapon Pounce from PH2, Lion's Pounce from Complete Divine, or 1 level of Spiritual Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champion) and you'll get double damage on the attacks with both your lances.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm not missing the point at all--you can TWF with precision damage and also get the benefits of Power Attack. If you're dumping Strength and not using any melee abilities on your weapons, why are you even going into Bloodstorm Blade?

You can chuck daggers all day without needing any of its abilities; you can get the same result if you have a bunch of returning daggers as if you have two daggers and Lightning Richochet, and though the returning weapons might be more expensive you're sinking 3 levels of stuff you don't use that could easily be used otherwise before you get anything useful, which is a long time in actual play. If nothing else, you could use one of those levels for sorcerer to be able to cast the X-strike spells yourself without UMD and pick up Arcane Strike to boost damage, or Duskblade 3 for Arcane Channeling.

The build in question would have him wielding +1 Collision daggers. Since enchanting a BUNCH of daggers with +1 Collision would be... prohibitively expensive... I figured Bloodstorm Blade would be economical, since Returning doesn't arrive until the beginning of my NEXT turn, so I can't make iterative attacks with it as I can Lightning Ricochet.

Also, Gravestrike is a Cleric spell, Golemstrike is a Wiz/Sorc spell, and Vinestrike is a Druid spell, so I'm not going to be able to cover all three bases with a single level dip.

[Eldariel]

Are you sure you want SA base? 'cause having to use Sniper's Shot whenever operating beyond 60' range means he'll be less effective at long range even with relevant amounts of work put into it. Or do you intend on bypassing that with BSB?

That said, yeah, it seems perfectly workable. The Warblade-level definitely seems like the best way to go, simply for the quantity of Iron Heart-maneuvers to use on Bloodstorm's abilities. Adaptive Style works fine on refreshing both maneuvers anyways.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The build in question would have him wielding +1 Collision daggers. Since enchanting a BUNCH of daggers with +1 Collision would be... prohibitively expensive... I figured Bloodstorm Blade would be economical, since Returning doesn't arrive until the beginning of my NEXT turn, so I can't make iterative attacks with it as I can Lightning Ricochet.

Why collision when you already have a source of extra damage? Well, it's up to you, I suppose; I just don't think BB is worth the investment in this case.

Also, Gravestrike is a Cleric spell, Golemstrike is a Wiz/Sorc spell, and Vinestrike is a Druid spell, so I'm not going to be able to cover all three bases with a single level dip.

I was thinking of wraithstrike and golemstrike in particular, since you'd want touch attacks much more often than any of the other three.

...say, that's an idea. Sorc 1/Druid 1/Cleric 1 would give you all the spells you need, and you could use all the money you save on not buying wands to enchant daggers!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Why collision when you already have a source of extra damage? Well, it's up to you, I suppose; I just don't think BB is worth the investment in this case.



I was thinking of wraithstrike and golemstrike in particular, since you'd want touch attacks much more often than any of the other three.

...say, that's an idea. Sorc 1/Druid 1/Cleric 1 would give you all the spells you need, and you could use all the money you save on not buying wands to enchant daggers!

Wands are 750 each. +1 daggers are 1k, with +1 Collision daggers going for 9k. Even 10 wands wouldn't equal the price of a single dagger. So no, I don't think it would be cheaper.

Eldarial does bring up a good point that SA outside of 30' isn't going to work, barring shenanigans. However, I'll still have Dex + 5 as bonus damage.

Honestly, Power Attack, without accompanying Shock Trooper to negate the massive attack penalty, isn't really all that good unless you have MASSIVE bonuses to attack elsewhere. And if I go for a Warblade rather than Rogue/Swordsage, then I won't have UMD for Wraithstrike, unless you suggest some kind of Gish build

[Gorbash]

+1 daggers are 1k, with +1 Collision daggers going for 9k

Actually 2300 and 18300, respectively.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually 2300 and 18300, respectively.

Ahh, you are right, I was using the Armor pricing list, not the Weapon list...

[Eldariel]

Eldarial does bring up a good point that SA outside of 30' isn't going to work, barring shenanigans. However, I'll still have Dex + 5 as bonus damage.

60' is doable with some circumstances and feats, but beyond that Wand of Sniper's Shot is your only option. Honestly, this was what turned me off SA (and in general, Precision)-based characters when I was building my own "Warrior with decent archery skills" in the first place, which in turn created new problems in getting bow damage up there without precision damage.

My solution was to take a different path instead, going martial archer (using Warblade-base with Fighter & Ranger splashes) and Ranged Weapon Mastery + Str-focus to get the damage up to a reasonable degree. Thanks to Full BAB, WF & RWM, going Str-focus didn't hurt archery accuracy that bad (although the character definitely does want two high stats for Str and Dex) and maneuvers + Power Attack handle the melee (with Dancing Mongoose, Rapid Mongoose and Time Stands Still eventually also stepping up the Archery at the point it needs a boost the most at). This results in a deadly melee type with the capability to function just fine at ranges up to ~1700' given observation (with Dragonbone Greatbow & RWM) with a bow.


However, I'm assuming you want to stick to the stub presented here? I've noticed that you like Rogues quite a bit which would fit the mold. So yeah, that hole is easily patched up with UMD; the only real problem is running out of swift actions here. Finding a passive way to penetrate DR that doesn't require actions would certainly improve your long range capabilities considerably.

Weapon crystals are obvious for Undead and Constructs, but elementals, plants & oozes are much more difficult, as are characters with Fortifications. Penetrating Strike is obvious, but it only functions in melee (at least you can provide your own flanker with Burning Ember), and only vs. opponents you can flank (although that's most of them with Darkstalker; leaves only Amorphous creatures, Elementals, Swarms & Oozes...and for Swarms, you're best off UMDing scrolls of mass destruction anyways).

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Wands are 750 each. +1 daggers are 1k, with +1 Collision daggers going for 9k. Even 10 wands wouldn't equal the price of a single dagger. So no, I don't think it would be cheaper.

Not in the slightest. Hence the smiley.

Honestly, Power Attack, without accompanying Shock Trooper to negate the massive attack penalty, isn't really all that good unless you have MASSIVE bonuses to attack elsewhere.

That's what wraithstrike is for. Your opponent's wearing plate armor? Free +16 (or more) damage with the same chance to hit. Going up against a dragon? Their 10 Dex isn't going to help against touch attacks. And so on and so forth.

[Riffington]

You don't need dancing, and it's not too difficult to come up with something powerful using lances. So you can charge with a lance in each hand. You just need some version of pounce (Two-Weapon Pounce from PH2, Lion's Pounce from Complete Divine, or 1 level of Spiritual Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champion) and you'll get double damage on the attacks with both your lances.

I feel like this is responding to a different post than the one I made.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It's a shame Warlock won't qualify for Arcane Trickster, because that would be something I could really do to bump both SA and base damage on a RTA to bring something back down to size. With Glaive, I could still get a full sneak attack progression, guaranteed touch attacks, ignores DR (and SR with Vitriolic)... too bad I can't dual-wield them... and I can't get more than one shot off (barring Quicken SLA).

I suppose this concept doesn't work out quite the way I wanted it to. Entry to BB is too difficult without dropping my precision-based damage low enough that it isn't worth bothering with, and applying said precision-based damage at ranges greater than 30' also becomes difficult, and almost impossible after 60'.

Ahh well. Do you suppose Glaivelock would qualify for 'deadly at any range'? Maybe Dragonfire Adept? See if I can talk my GM into allowing Lesser Invocations count as 3rd level spells for purposes of entry to get Arcane Trickster?

[Talic]

First, save yourself the trouble on golemstrike/grave strike. Greater demolition crystals and greater true death crystals will do it without running out.

Vinestrike? Perhaps. Use the money you save on wands to get one of each crystal (for comparison, it'd be rather hard to dual wield daggers while spamming a golemstrike wand), and you're covered on both types.

For wands? Try wraithstrike. That's a sexy spell for a sneak attacker. Lookin at, if not detected, Attack rolls versus flat footed touch AC -2.
If flanking? Touch AC -2.

For those that think the OP build is as good as splitting due to power attack, please note the section where strength is being used as a dump stat, on a character with a racial penalty to strength. Unless the definition of "Dump stat" enncompasses a 15 base, that's out.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

First, save yourself the trouble on golemstrike/grave strike. Greater demolition crystals and greater true death crystals will do it without running out.

Vinestrike? Perhaps. Use the money you save on wands to get one of each crystal (for comparison, it'd be rather hard to dual wield daggers while spamming a golemstrike wand), and you're covered on both types.

a) crystals cost 9k. Wands cost 750. b) Wand Sheaths let me use wands while still using my weapons. c) Crystal ONLY works on the weapon it is attached to (i.e. HALF of my attacks), wand works on all attacks made that round.

For wands? Try wraithstrike. That's a sexy spell for a sneak attacker. Lookin at, if not detected, Attack rolls versus flat footed touch AC -2.
If flanking? Touch AC -2.

Gonna run out of charges real quick if you are using it every turn. The economy on the golemstrike/gravestrike wands is that it (hopefully) won't be needed every encounter. In fact, the mere presence is generally enough for the GM to say "Okay, you got your immunity-to-precision bases covered, I'm not going to bother trying to hurt you that way". It's more of a threat to use, and utility in the rare occasions where it is necessary, than a "use this EVERY ROUND" thing.

For those that think the OP build is as good as splitting due to power attack, please note the section where strength is being used as a dump stat, on a character with a racial penalty to strength. Unless the definition of "Dump stat" enncompasses a 15 base, that's out.

Thank you for this reminder. This character has a Str of 6(after racial). He's not going to be PAing ANYTHING.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Ahh well. Do you suppose Glaivelock would qualify for 'deadly at any range'?

Only if it's a Hellfire Warlock as well, and even then you'll be lagging behind for a few levels. EB damage just doesn't cut it past level 7 or so otherwise, and you can't make HFW until 9th.

For those that think the OP build is as good as splitting due to power attack, please note the section where strength is being used as a dump stat, on a character with a racial penalty to strength. Unless the definition of "Dump stat" enncompasses a 15 base, that's out.

No one thinks it is as good due to PA; however, I did suggest that if he was going to go BB it could be, because as a BB he shouldn't dump Str, in which case he could PA just fine.

[Talic]

a) crystals cost 9k. Wands cost 750. b) Wand Sheaths let me use wands while still using my weapons. c) Crystal ONLY works on the weapon it is attached to (i.e. HALF of my attacks), wand works on all attacks made that round.

True. So you're still contributing, and auto-bypassing DR/Incorporeal for those half attacks. The common theme for constructs and undead is no con score. The HP aren't that impressive. You'll be contributing solidly even without, due to lower HP. And those two crystals will preempt any need to buy ever again, and not eat swift actions, which could be better used for gish spells/maneuvers/Devotion feats/etc.

Gonna run out of charges real quick if you are using it every turn. The economy on the golemstrike/gravestrike wands is that it (hopefully) won't be needed every encounter. In fact, the mere presence is generally enough for the GM to say "Okay, you got your immunity-to-precision bases covered, I'm not going to bother trying to hurt you that way". It's more of a threat to use, and utility in the rare occasions where it is necessary, than a "use this EVERY ROUND" thing.

Which is why you don't use it every round, every fight. Just because you CAN use it in such a situation doesn't mean it's a good idea to always use it.

No, you save it for those critical actions where it's needed.
[QUOTE=ShneekeyTheLost;6477708]
I typically take my BSB's the Brutal Throw/Power attack route myself, but it's an interesting take on it.

No one thinks it is as good due to PA; however, I did suggest that if he was going to go BB it could be, because as a BB he shouldn't dump Str, in which case he could PA just fine.

Careful on the "Should". This is still a viable build. Rerouting stat bonuses to Dex and using Dex based abilities (rather than strength) is a valid and creative use.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Careful on the "Should". This is still a viable build. Rerouting stat bonuses to Dex and using Dex based abilities (rather than strength) is a valid and creative use.

Let me rephrase, then: This is a viable build as-is, but because (A) he's getting no benefit from the first 3 levels of BB and (B) he could add PA and Str with only minor changes to the build, he could have a more viable build if he either improved his Str for PA or replaced BB for something else (whether Warblade, Fighter, Master Thrower, or whatever).

[lvl 1 fighter]

This thread might give you some ideas. It's not exactly on topic, but it's about hitting from range with sneak attack so there's some stuff in there that might help you.

Sneak Attacking Spellcasters, a preliminary guide

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This thread might give you some ideas. It's not exactly on topic, but it's about hitting from range with sneak attack so there's some stuff in there that might help you.

Sneak Attacking Spellcasters, a preliminary guide

While browsing through that, I found this little trick. I still don't know how 'legit' it is, but it seems to be a work-around for Warlocks getting into PrC's with requirements of "casting spells of x level". Rogue/Warlock/AT might be possible after all!