Crusader,swordsage,warblade?

[olelia]

Basically what the title says. I've recently acquired TOB and after a lot of asprin I think I have at least a basic grasp of manuevers, recovery, and the general mechanics. At first glance crusader seems the "easiest" to play because its really simple refresh mechanics. But overall...what do you feel is the most "fun" to play. I kinda like the crusader styles with the self healing but overall what are your opinions?

[Mr.Moron]

All three are a blast, and play to different character types. Warblade is arguably the strongest, if raw power is your thing.

Swordsage just has tons of cool factor going for it though.

[Eldariel]

When I want a mystical warrior, a sneak or an unarmed combatant, I go Swordsage. When I want a martial badass beat 'em up-kinda guy with nothing but raw skill about him, I go Warblade. When I was a divine warrior, I go Crusader.

I don't find any inherently more fun, just like I don't necessarily find playing a Psion more fun than I find a Warblade; what's most fun is what fits the type you want to play. Warblade has Iron Heart and swift recovery going for him, Swordsage has the largest amount of variety including the tools to adapt depending on the circumstances and what exactly you need and Crusader has free action recovery, and great skillset for a protector/tank-type character.

[Vaynor]

I love playing a swordsage. The desert maneuvers are a lot of fun, and can be quite powerful when combined with a clever use of the shadow maneuvers.

[Weezer]

I prefer using Swordsage mostly because my characters tend towards the sneaky side of the spectrum and Swordsage fits that to a T.

That said I have had fun playing with Warblade, its nice having a martial character with more options than full attack, trip, disarm. Never played a crusader though, mostly because i tend to shy away from divine types usually.

Crusader, swordsage, warblade... oh my

[Cedrass]

I'll ask here since I don't feel the need to create an other thread (plus it may help the OP) but I have the feeling the Swordsage is the weaker of the 3.

He only has d8 HD, a 3/4 BAB and can only wear Light Armor, compare to Crusader or Warblade I don't think he's so great... Sense Magic is a nice touch, but utterly useless in battle, his Wis to AC is nice too, he gets Evasion which is ok and Dual Boost is really good. That being said, his damage output seems to be not so great since he has to rely on Dex and Wis a lot, his BAB doesn't help with that and his low AC will get him to low HP faster than other warriors.

I might be wrong though, but reading the class it's the feeling I get. Feel free to prove me wrong (I know I will be proven wrong, and I'll be glass if I am. Maybe I'll roll one next campaign ;P)

[The Glyphstone]

Crusader simple? I'd say it has the most complicated maneuver recovery system of the three, because of the whole random-determination. Warblade is the simplest, just make a basic melee attack or spend a standard action brandishing your sword to recover all your maneuvers - Swordsage takes a full turn to recover 1 maneuver. Crusader doesn't take active actions on your part, but it's the most bookkeeping of the three, especially when you factor in the damage reservoir.

[olelia]

This might sound kinda silly...because I've seen the pixie crusader aura of chaos combo...but does aura of chaos apply to extra damage dice...like the one from divine surge? ...if yes..that seems like it can have all types of shenanigans with rogues and the like.

[ZeroNumerous]

I might be wrong though, but reading the class it's the feeling I get. Feel free to prove me wrong (I know I will be proven wrong, and I'll be glass if I am. Maybe I'll roll one next campaign ;P)

My common Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 3/Swordsage X build generally does fine in combat. INT to damage. 3d6 Sneak Attack(with Daring Outlaw) plus DEX to damage and +2d6 more Sneak Attack when in Assassin's Stance. Using a strike it goes up to WIS+INT+DEX to damage plus 5d6 sneak plus whatever your weapon is plus any bonus from your strike.

EDIT:

This might sound kinda silly...because I've seen the pixie crusader aura of chaos combo...but does aura of chaos apply to extra damage dice...like the one from divine surge? ...if yes..that seems like it can have all types of shenanigans with rogues and the like.

Any damage dice you roll, ever. This is why the 1d2 Crusader gets infinite damage with any 1d2 damage weapon.

[olelia]

Uh ... erk... <twitch> <thump> <spasm spasm>

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'll ask here since I don't feel the need to create an other thread (plus it may help the OP) but I have the feeling the Swordsage is the weaker of the 3.

He only has d8 HD, a 3/4 BAB and can only wear Light Armor, compare to Crusader or Warblade I don't think he's so great... Sense Magic is a nice touch, but utterly useless in battle, his Wis to AC is nice too, he gets Evasion which is ok and Dual Boost is really good. That being said, his damage output seems to be not so great since he has to rely on Dex and Wis a lot, his BAB doesn't help with that and his low AC will get him to low HP faster than other warriors.

I might be wrong though, but reading the class it's the feeling I get. Feel free to prove me wrong (I know I will be proven wrong, and I'll be glass if I am. Maybe I'll roll one next campaign ;P)

The upside to playing a Swordsage is in the maneuvers - SSages get a lot more maneuvers, and have quite a few more schools to choose them from, compared to the other two.

[Sinfire Titan]

Uh ... erk... <twitch> <thump> <spasm spasm>

1: Infinite Damage is meaningless if you can't hit worth a damn.
2: Concealment>The d2 Crusader.
3: Wizards>>>>>The d2 Crusader.
4: HP damage is a horridly sub-optimal means of dealing damage.
5; This trick doesn't work until 11th level or so.
6: Pun-Pun>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The d2 Crusader.

Any questions?

[olelia]

Its not the infinite damage... its just the silliness of the re rolling any damage dice...that just seems to have a lot of possibilities...

[Sinfire Titan]

Its not the infinite damage... its just the silliness of the re rolling any damage dice...that just seems to have a lot of possibilities...

Not really. It only works on attacks, so spells don't get it unless they require an attack roll. And the investment required to get this ability is just more than most Full casters should be willing to pay.

[Vaynor]

I'll ask here since I don't feel the need to create an other thread (plus it may help the OP) but I have the feeling the Swordsage is the weaker of the 3.

He only has d8 HD, a 3/4 BAB and can only wear Light Armor, compare to Crusader or Warblade I don't think he's so great... Sense Magic is a nice touch, but utterly useless in battle, his Wis to AC is nice too, he gets Evasion which is ok and Dual Boost is really good. That being said, his damage output seems to be not so great since he has to rely on Dex and Wis a lot, his BAB doesn't help with that and his low AC will get him to low HP faster than other warriors.

I might be wrong though, but reading the class it's the feeling I get. Feel free to prove me wrong (I know I will be proven wrong, and I'll be glass if I am. Maybe I'll roll one next campaign ;P)

That may be true but they also get a lot of maneuvers to choose from/use. They have the most options out of any of the 3 classes.

[olelia]

Not really. It only works on attacks, so spells don't get it unless they require an attack roll. And the investment required to get this ability is just more than most Full casters should be willing to pay.

Isn't that why they invented gestalt?

[Sinfire Titan]

Isn't that why they invented gestalt?

No. They invented Gestalt to give 2-player groups a way to not suck. We just abused it.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

My portfolio sense tingled, you guys are talking about Tome of Battle.

I think to decide what you want to play when it comes to the three classes, think about if you'd like to play a fighter, a paladin or a monk and then look at their ToB alternative. The obvious differences aside, crusaders being paladins of any god they so desire, and swordsages being more flexible than monks by leaps and bounds.
My personal favorite is warblade because I like the idea of fighters, but I agree with everyone when they say fighters are piddly little weaklings in the eyes of wizards and clerics. Warblades still don't add up to them darn book-learners but it closes the gap a considerable amount.

Also hey, what's this?
Might be useful. Who knows?

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Swordsages may not be as quite as potent as the other two out of the box, but they are still effective. The Adaptive Style feat vastly improves them, and they even have a sweet cheat code located in the back of their section in the book. Look for the word: Mystic.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The most powerful class in ToB, and arguably in 3.5, is the Arcane Swordsage variant on page 20 under the 'Adaptation' heading. Get the feat Adaptive Style and after just a few levels all of your minute/level duration and longer buffs can be constantly active, without even keeping any of them readied. Constantly have Shield and Dolorous Blow active, use Nerveskitter on every fight, get Wraithstrike and Whirling Blade, and buff everyone with Greater Magic Weapon. Outside of combat your spells are basically at-will, so get things like Alarm and Greater Mage Hand. In the higher levels you can take spells like Greater Dispel Magic (5th level from the Bard list even), Disintegrate, and Ruby Ray of Reversal. Even spells like Invoke Magic (LoM) and Iceberg (Frostburn) are usable an unlimited number of times each day.

[Optimator]

I'm a Warblade man myself. Full-on ass-kickery with Int synergy? Yes please.

[Saph]

It's probably not a good idea to dwell on the most broken stuff in ToB, if you want to encourage people to use it. As long as you ban the 1d2 Crusader and Arcane Swordsage, ToB works fine. That said, it does lend itself to a higher power level than many groups use, so the DM has to make sure to send appropriately tough enemies at the party to make up for it.

- Saph

[Agrippa]

I've come to really like Tome of Battle. The only problem is the fact that the crusader, swordsage and warblade are classes and not class templates. Of course that's the result of using a single experience point track for all classes. Who wouldn't want to play ranger or brawler (fighter variant with monk-like unarmed attack) with the warblade template. Perhaps a paladin, barbarian or cleric crusader. Maybe even a streetfighter (stealth oriented, dirty fighting, street wise fighter variant) or assassin swordsage. With class specific experience charts that could happen.

[Ponce]

Crusader for life. Never find yourself in the negatives again!

[nefele]

I'll ask here since I don't feel the need to create an other thread (plus it may help the OP) but I have the feeling the Swordsage is the weaker of the 3.

He only has d8 HD, a 3/4 BAB and can only wear Light Armor, compare to Crusader or Warblade I don't think he's so great... Sense Magic is a nice touch, but utterly useless in battle, his Wis to AC is nice too, he gets Evasion which is ok and Dual Boost is really good. That being said, his damage output seems to be not so great since he has to rely on Dex and Wis a lot, his BAB doesn't help with that and his low AC will get him to low HP faster than other warriors.

True. But Swordsages aren't meant to be tanks. They are meant to be mobile and/or sneaky warriors, with a lot of tricks up their sleeve. And they are my favorite martial adepts.

They get a ton of maneuvers (many of them unique), they make awesome dex-based warriors (with Shadow Blade), they support TWF better than any martial adept thanks to the many boosts they get, they support sneak attack (obviously effective with TWF), they support unarmed combat and tripping builds (the general consensus is that the unarmed swordsage is what the monk should have been)... All in all, they are one most versatile martial classes out there. And their flavor (which is also very versatile - there's a long way from From Desert Wind to Shadow Hand) is wonderful, IMO.

Next in line, is Warblade. Very nice synergy with high intelligence, small but great selection of maneuver (for damage, for battlefield control, and for defenses), nice flavor and a clean break from the "dump fighter" trope.

I put Crusader last, though crusaders are arguably the best tanks in D&D (yeah, OK, I mean non-casters tanks). Huge damage potential from the beginning and amazing battlefield control in mid levels (with the right build, practically nothing can move around you). The main reason I'm not too hot about crusaders is that their recovery method is wonky. I don't mind the chance factor, but I find it a horrible hassle, personally.

If it's the first time you try ToB, I suggest you begin with either a straight martial adept (from the three, choose the one you fancy better - certainly none of them is weak, neither a one-trick pony), or, if you're starting in mid to high levels, dip. A common rogue with a couple of swordsage levels can do wonders. A fighter with a crapload of feats who suddenly has access to warblade maneuvers is great. Etc.

And once you get a feel of the basics in game, you can start multi-classing and playing around. The options are endless. Have fun.

[Knaight]

I've come to really like Tome of Battle. The only problem is the fact that the crusader, swordsage and warblade are classes and not class templates. Of course that's the result of using a single experience point track for all classes. Who wouldn't want to play ranger or brawler (fighter variant with monk-like unarmed attack) with the warblade template. Perhaps a paladin, barbarian or cleric crusader. Maybe even a streetfighter (stealth oriented, dirty fighting, street wise fighter variant) or assassin swordsage. With class specific experience charts that could happen.

How does the single experience point track affect anything? A range or brawler is covered using Warbade or Swordsage(setting sun focus), the crusader is basically a paladin and melee cleric replacement, the streetfighter is just a warblade who takes a few levels in rogue, some hiding, a shadow hand stance with a feat, etc.

Class specific experience charts aren't needed.

[AslanCross]

I prefer the warblade myself. They're in the middle range when it comes to versatility (Crusaders are the least versatile due to their narrow selection of disciplines while Swordsages are the most versatile), best when it comes to maneuver recovery, and they're also the most mundane, relying on pure skill and technique as opposed to divine or magical talents.

[Eldariel]

It's probably not a good idea to dwell on the most broken stuff in ToB, if you want to encourage people to use it. As long as you ban the 1d2 Crusader and Arcane Swordsage, ToB works fine. That said, it does lend itself to a higher power level than many groups use, so the DM has to make sure to send appropriately tough enemies at the party to make up for it.

- Saph

1d2 Crusader doesn't even work. The Luck-domain just lets you treat 1s as 2s; you didn't actually roll a 2 so you don't get your rerolls meaning you deal a square 2 points of damage per hit. And Arcane Swordsage is just an Adaptation, and a far less successful one at that than Unarmed Swordsage.


But yeah, Swordsages are sorta the weakest of the 3. Not by a lot though; they still have the best low level AC (given Dex- or Wis-focus) due to getting both, Wis & Dex to AC while wearing light armor, and their insane variety of maneuvers + Adaptive Style lets them take 1 full round action to have JUST the right tools for any given situation. Maneuvers exist that give a variety of boosts to their attacks and they have that free Weapon Focus to a ton of weapons on level 1 making their 3/4 BAB less of an issue.

They have the largest variety of schools (although all 3 they're missing, White Raven, Iron Heart & Devoted Spirit, are awesome) and they can realize a dozen character concepts (Setting Sun-, Shadow Hand-, Desert Wind-, Diamond Mind- and Tiger Claw Swordsages all look totally different).

[mistformsquirrl]

Of the 3, I generally prefer the Warblade.

The reasons being very straightforward:

Iron Heart and Diamond Mind. The two disciplines together are, for my purposes, pretty much perfect for creating an anime-styled samurai character. They also work well for any sort of extraordinary swordsman/woman type character really.

It's flashy... but not nearly as flashy as the other two.

I still prefer Fighter sometimes; but Warblade is a great deal of fun to me >.>m

[Saph]

But yeah, Swordsages are sorta the weakest of the 3. Not by a lot though; they still have the best low level AC (given Dex- or Wis-focus) due to getting both, Wis & Dex to AC while wearing light armor, and their insane variety of maneuvers + Adaptive Style lets them take 1 full round action to have JUST the right tools for any given situation. Maneuvers exist that give a variety of boosts to their attacks and they have that free Weapon Focus to a ton of weapons on level 1 making their 3/4 BAB less of an issue.

I dunno, I always thought they were potentially the most powerful. The TWF Desert Wind/Shadow Hand swordsage is pretty nasty. I had one as an NPC in my Phantasy Star game (the character was Rika, for the curious) and actually had to take her out of combats after she started to outshine the PCs. Pouncing charge + Assassin's Stance + Searing/Burning Blade + TWF made her quite capable of killing opponents in one turn. And that was a single-class Swordsage using nothing but PHB + ToB, and without any particular effort put into the build.

- Saph