(3.5) Gish base class versus gish multiclassing?

[Coidzor]

I'm about to start up a campaign where one of my players has expressed an interest in playing a gish (I can't remember if he said hexblade or...that other one... I think it begins with a D...duskblade? those are both base classes, right?)

He's not really familiar with them and neither am I, so I figured I might avail myself of some advice on the matter of, first, since we'd be starting at about level 5-6, would it be better to recommend him to just multiclass it or to go with a gish base class?

Basically, as far as I know, he wants a magical swordsman swashbucklery(not actually the class per say, more the theme) type, and I'm curious as to what would best deliver that both for his sake and so I can familiarize myself with them for my job as DM.

spiel about relative experience with DND here.

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(before this our most experience has been with low level, single-class campaigns due to the fact that we're all fairly new except for one of the players who usually has been our DM and another who is more familiar with RIFTs than DnD. And then one player is a complete newb who I'm having to figure out what to make for her if I can't get a chance to sit down with her and create her character before our first session... or if the first session should just be char gen...)

Edit:
Alternate rules: Defensive Bonus is going to be used since it's a sea-faring, swashbucklery themed campaign.

He's been playing for about half a year now, as have I, two campaigns and a couple of one-shots, and has played both a wizard and a druid character. We're about middle of the road in terms of optimization, I think... so yeah.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well, I don't have much experience with the Duskblade or Hexblade classes, but it's probably easier than multiclassing a gish if you're not very experienced. I'm not sure either one is all that swashbucklery, but I'm sure it's a workable angle.

Just be sure to find the Duskblade's spell list at the end of its entry (after the example character, I think). It's kind of hard to spot.


GOOD LUCK!!

[InkEyes]

For a beginner a level 5-6 a multiclass gish may a bit frustrating because you're only just getting into prestige classes that mesh your casting and martial stuff, so you're still a bit squishy and may not have a great AC. A newbie might also be a bit intimidated by the large spell lists of some of the base arcane classes. It is worth noting that in the long run a multiclass gish will probably be 'stronger' than an out-of-the-box one; this is primarily because people tend use the Wizard as the base caster. They also require more paperwork because you'll be going into and out of a minimum of four classes if you take the class all the way to level 20.

The out-of-the-box classes are both fun and easy to run with but have a few flaws of their own. The Hexblade was made early in 3.5's life, so wizards feared the class would be too powerful and made it.... suck. This is a well-known unofficial fix of the class made by one of its creators. I've never run it but it always looked pretty good.

Fortunately, wizards learned from their mistakes and published the Duskblade! I have a player who just finished her first game with her first character, a Duskblade, and she said she had a lot of fun. They're a good introduction to the world of arcane spellcasting combined with sword fighting. They have a few flaws, the spell list is depressingly short (if you have an 18 intelligence at chargen you'll literally be able to know more 0-level spells than are on your list). Some folk here compiled a list of good spells for the Duskblade, if that becomes a problem. Another problem is people miss where the complete list of Duskblade spells in in the PHB2 a lot. One page has all the new spells from the PHB 2 for them, and one has the complete spell list, remember to make sure you're looking at the complete one.

[Eldariel]

"Swashbucklery" denotes Dex-focus and some skills; I think the perfect class for a Swashbuckler Wizard is Swiftblade. It does include multiclassing (probably being best off base Wizard/Fighter or Wizard/Swashbuckler or such) and goes fine with Abjurant Champion [Complete Mage] to finish things off.

Honestly, a Gray Elf/Fire Elf with Weapon Finesse, Power Attack (13 Str is enough; really handy for arcane swordsmen types) and proficiency in Elven Courtblade (just ask DM to give it to Elves for free; they should have it anyways) would make for a great arcane swashbuckler. Swiftblade Handbook offers some tips as to how to best build one (martial Wizard gets you fighter bonus feats to pick up Dodge & Mobility with).


But yeah, Duskblades are best when heavily armored and Hexblades aren't much of casters in the first place, so I don't think they really fit the idea.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Gishes suck. Blaster casters suck. The Duskblade is a Gish Blaster, and it is incredible. Not OP, but able to compete with a well-built party out of the box.

[Eldariel]

Gishes suck.

The what in a whaking sandwich?

[Aneantir]

The what in a whaking sandwich?

They're actually suboptimal compared to a dedicated arcanist.

But, they're still good. Well built gishes beat the stuffing out of Duskblades all day long.

[Eldariel]

They're actually suboptimal compared to a dedicated arcanist.

99% of the classes in the game are suboptimal compared to dedicated arcanists; that's not saying much.

[Deepblue706]

Gishes suck

If you can still get 9th level arcane spells by 20, you're still pretty damn good.

Anyway, uh, I vote for Swiftblade.

[AstralFire]

Swordsage, focus on Shadow Hand and Desert Wind, give him Spellcraft as a class skill and remove Martial Lore. BAM, Gish Swashbuckler.

[grautry]

Swordsage, focus on Shadow Hand and Desert Wind, give him Spellcraft as a class skill and remove Martial Lore. BAM, Gish Swashbuckler.

Or go with the spellcasting Swordsage adaptation. A word of warning though: this would be an incredibly broken class.

[Jalor]

A gish at levels 5-6 is way too squishy for most inexperienced players, and their spellcasting at that point is subpar. I would go with Duskblade, but at higher levels a multiclass gish is much more versatile.

[AstralFire]

Keeping the spellcasting Swordsage rendition in line requires a fair amount of work on the DM and players' parts - it's more of a class concept than it is a ready to play class. If you want a lightly armored swashbuckling gish that focuses on more support, I'd go Psychic Rogue or Beguiler.

[Keld Denar]

Duskblade is pretty strong at about 1-6 or so. After that, its starts to slow down and much past that ends up just another fighter hangin out waiting for everyone else to finish combat so he can go in and mop up. Its just an inherant weakness in not having good BC spells. At least a more traditional gish like a figher/wiz or a sorcadin can do something like spam Solid Fog, which is effective at ALL levels, before wading in and knocking heads together.

Plus, most good gish builds only lose 2-3 spellcaster levels, and thus end up with 9th level spells. Yea, 9th level spells are good, but so are 6th, 7th, and 8th, which a multiclass gish gets in those levels where Duskblade just kinda peters out.

[Eldariel]

Frankly, I suggest Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5. 17 BAB, 17 levels of casting, incredible abilities (including taking two standard actions and a move action each round with just Haste). The problem is that he'll really take onto his own around level ~10 or so.

[Keld Denar]

Frankly, I suggest Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5. 17 BAB, 17 levels of casting, incredible abilities (including taking two standard actions and a move action each round with just Haste). The problem is that he'll really take onto his own around level ~10 or so.

Ewww, Swiftblade10 is SOOO good though. You know they designed and balanced a class well when there such a decision between gaining an AWESOME class feature and gaining that last level of spellcasting that gives you 9th level spells. Well done, Swiftblade designers! Well done!

[Tempest Fennac]

The Battle Sorcerer, page 114 of http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD...asses-Base.pdf , could be another option, but it gains spells at a ridiculously slow pace.

[Keld Denar]

Battle Sorc's primary flaw is that the things you gain from it (better HD, better BAB, casting in armor) get replaced when you PrC into tasty tasty gish classes like Abjurant Champion, while severly stunted spell progression continues on. That really makes it hurt, unless you plan on taking BS all the way to 20, which is sub optimal due to how many other class features you get from other classes like Abjurant Champion or Swiftblade.

[Eldariel]

Ewww, Swiftblade10 is SOOO good though. You know they designed and balanced a class well when there such a decision between gaining an AWESOME class feature and gaining that last level of spellcasting that gives you 9th level spells. Well done, Swiftblade designers! Well done!

Well, my rationale was that by getting level 9 spells, you get to cast the regular Time Stop :P But yeah, it's an awesome design; I love the class beyond all recognition. Of course, you can use innervated speed in AMF thanks to you getting the Ex haste, which is just insane.

[Person_Man]

In my opinion, the best Gish for a beginner is a strait Paladin or Ranger with the Sword of the Arcane Order feat. Champions of Valor also has alternate class features which let you memorize a few more spells per day. Plus once a spell is on your list, you can use wands without Use Magic Device. Buy a couple of Wand Bracers (Magic Item Compendium, lets you switch wands in your hand as a Swift Action) and Wand Chambers (Dungeonscape, puts a wand in your weapon or shield, you could as holding the wand as long as your holding the weapon or shield) and you're set. Also, Paladins and Rangers some great spell options, especially if you have the Spell Compendium.

For the Hexblade to work well, you need to know how to optimize debuffs and work with another party member. The Duskblade nifty but frustrating, in that it has a very limited spell list. But if you do decide to go with one or the other, let us know, and we can optimize it for you.

[AstralFire]

Anything that wears Heavy Armor and has a low amount of skills has a hard time convincing me of its Swashbucklery-ness. Arcane Ranger I can buy, but Duskblade just does not seem to fit what the OP is asking for. I must again point out a reflavored Swordsage focusing on the Supernatural disciplines; IMO, Swordsage at its base is the second-simplest class in the game for a new person to pick up and do well with. (Easiest effective class being Warblade.) At worst it's time consuming to build at high levels compared to a Fighter or Barbarian.

[TheThan]

Well, I don't have much experience with the Duskblade or Hexblade classes, but it's probably easier than multiclassing a gish if you're not very experienced. I'm not sure either one is all that swashbucklery, but I'm sure it's a workable angle.

Just be sure to find the Duskblade's spell list at the end of its entry (after the example character, I think). It's kind of hard to spot.


GOOD LUCK!!

It's on page 11. FYI

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The idea behind a Gish is a warrior who uses magic to enhance his combat abilities via buffs. Hexblade and Duskblade don't get buffs, Duskblade is a pure melee blaster and Hexblade's spells aren't even worth talking about. He should maybe consider playing a Suel Arcanamach instead of a more standard gish, that's a prestige class in complete arcane. Duskblade is actually a really good class to take until he can qualify, mostly so he has spell slots for Arcane Strike and since he can use Versatile Spellcaster to use spells from his SA list. He can also include three levels of Swashbuckler if that's the type of character he wants to make. The only problem with that is Suel Arcanamach gets Cha-based spellcasting, while Duskblade and Swashbuckler are both Int-based classes. As the DM, you can just let him use Int instead of Cha for SA since everyone is inexperienced and it probably won't unbalance the game. I'd recommend the following build:

Gray Elf (in the monster manual), Str no lower than 13 after racial adjustments, Dex priority, Con decent, Int priority, Wis and Cha dump stats.
Swashbuckler 3/ Duskblade 3/ Suel Arcanamach 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Spellsword 1/ Suel Arcanamach +3/ Dragon Disciple 4, in that order. Iron Will is a prerequisite of SA, but starting higher than 1st level he can just pay 3,000 gp for it instead of spending a feat via the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel. The only other feat he needs to qualify for everything is Combat Casting, which Duskblade grants for free. His other feats should be Improved Weapon Familiarity (CW), Ancestral Relic (BoED), Power Attack, Arcane Strike (CW), Improved Critical, Defensive Sweep (PH2), and probably Combat Reflexes. If you allow flaws he should use one to move Power Attack to 1st level and get Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon at 6th level.

His ancestral relic should be an Elven Courtblade from Races of the Wild. If the party will sell looted items for half its value, including nonmagical items, then he can buy it from the treasure pool for half its value (and get some of that divided back to him) and sacrifice its full value into his ancestral relic. Every time he gains a level he can reassign what magical properties that value goes toward, so for example it can be +1 Keen at one level, then +1 Wounding when he can afford it, then change it to +1 Speed after that, etc. Also note that he can have stored value in excess of the level-based limit, its current magical properties just can't exceed that value.

For his Duskblade spells known I'd get Color Spray, True Strike, Shocking Grasp, and Resist Energy. For his Suel Arcanamach spells I'd get Shield, Enlarge Person, Wraithstrike, Bladeweave, Haste, Protection from Evil, Whirling Blade, Polymorph, Heart of Earth (CM), Alarm, Heart of Water (CM), Swift Etherealness (PH2), Heart of Air (CM), Heart of Fire (CM), and Ray Deflection. All of those are in either the PHB or Spell Compendium unless I noted Complete Mage or PH2. Polymorph is an overpowered spell, and a staple of most Gish builds. For example, as soon as he gets it he'll be able to take the form of a War Troll (MM3), to get Large size, 40 ft. land speed, Str 31, Dex 16, Con 29, +14 natural armor, and the Dazing Blow special attack. If you think it may cause problems, move up Heart of Earth and Ray Deflection and make the last one Greater Invisibility.

[serow]

Perhaps the Psychic Warrior?

I would say that is the best fighter-mage base class out of the box. Infinitely customisable thanks to a generous feat selection, and PsyWar spells can recreate almost kind of theme eg. mobility spells for swashbuckler, AC spells for armoured tank, mobility/damage spells for archer etc.

The psionics system isn't as hard as it seems to be... and might be more intuitive to some.

[Thrawn183]

I'm going to vote for Duskblade. Gishes are tough to pull off so it sounds like you would all be happier with something that basically puts itself together.

You also happen to be at a level where Duskblade ROCKS. Quicken a true strike, move to the target and power attack for full while channeling a shocking grasp. This just gets stronger if he also gets spell storing weapon (with another shocking grasp in it of course). You end up with something that's basically guaranteed to hit and does his normal weapon damage +10 +10d6 electricity.

That'll one shot almost any CR 5 or 6 outside of like a zombie render or an orca because those are basically just big bags of HP and not much else.

Duskblades are short on versatility (though they have a lot more than non-casting classes or skill based classes of course) and long on some burst damage.

[ZeroNumerous]

Ewww, Swiftblade10 is SOOO good though.

4 rounds of Time Stop with Haste as a 9th level spell, or 5 rounds of Time Stop with Time Stop maximized via Rod?

Also, +1 to the Duskblade camp. It's out-of-the-box gishing for newbies.

[JeminiZero]

Let me suggest something completely different.

Play a Cleric.

Seriously, its far more newbie friendly (no need to concern yourself with which spells you add to your book, you automatically can access any the DM allows). He gets decent Armor/Shield, AB and hit points from the get go, and while the spell list isn't as world bending as true Arcane magic, there is enough good stuff there if he wants to throw out the occasional offensive/controller spell (Shatter, Bestow Curse, Wall of Stone, Slay Living etc). And thats not including some of the stuff he can access from domains.

[Eldariel]

4 rounds of Time Stop with Haste as a 9th level spell, or 5 rounds of Time Stop with Time Stop maximized via Rod?

Do note that the 4 rounds of Time Stop is Ex though (because it's actually Haste that just replicates Time Stop, and you make your Hastes Ex) allowing you to use it in AMFs (or have the AMF around you; Swiftblades really make sexcellent AMF users). Oh, and it's Quickened for free (you can't subsume a metamagicked version of Haste, but your free Quicken-ability is no metamagic).

Seriously, thanks to their full BAB, natural access to Elusive Target and miss chance + extra action, a Swiftblade is a match for just about any full BAB character in an AMF/Dead Magic Zone with just his Haste on (and he can keep it on in those circumstances).

[Myrmex]

Perhaps the Psychic Warrior?

I would say that is the best fighter-mage base class out of the box. Infinitely customisable thanks to a generous feat selection, and PsyWar spells can recreate almost kind of theme eg. mobility spells for swashbuckler, AC spells for armoured tank, mobility/damage spells for archer etc.

The psionics system isn't as hard as it seems to be... and might be more intuitive to some.

+1

and some letters

[AstralFire]

:\

What is the obsession with heavy armor wearers?