New Feat: Leverage

[MrNexx]

Leverage
Prerequisites: Strength 13, Power Attack, Cleave
Benefit: When wielding a melee weapon in two hands, you may use you Strength modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier to initiative.
Normal: Your dexterity is added to Intiative

Now, I came up with this partially as a way to represent your increased ability to move a heavy weapon due to the muscle you have acting upon it, as well as the whole leverage principle active when you have two hands on a blade. However, I want some help with the language, since I think it's balanced if it's just the Strength modifier, not Str *1.5 like you get when using a weapon two-handed.

[Democratus]

It seems that this would only be worth it if you roll initiative every round.

There are still some strange questions I can't resolve with this. Most encounters don't start within 5' of an enemy. So how does wielding a two handed weapon allow you to take a move action sooner?

[FlashFire]

I like the idea of taking a feat to change the initiative from being dexterity based, and I like the idea of using Strength to represent faster ability with a weapon. But I have to agree with the above poster, how does swinging a sword start you faster from far away?

Have you considered perhaps implementing weapon speed as an initiative modifier to your game, and then using Strength to mitigate the weapon speeds? It's a little more complicated, and you pretty much need to add another block to the character sheet to accomplish it cleanly, but I was always a fan of this in 2nd Edition.

The basic gist of it is as follows - A person can swing a short sword faster than a greatsword. So they have a higher initiative modifier with that weapon. Then use massive strength bonuses to increase the initiative of the weapon speed.

Of course... this still doesn't solve the problem of weapon speed changing the initiative from far off.

[Chris_Chandler]

Initiative is a lot more than just swinging the ol' greataxe around, but I understand your intent here.

How about something to activate an existing rule, rather than gum up how initiative should be interpreted. Think about combining the delay action (since refocus has been folded into the delay) with a cleave - Something like this:

After a successful cleave attempt at an opponent, you gain a free delay action to move your initiative to higher in the initiative count.

It's based on this section of the delay action rule:

If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round

What I've got down is a bit clunky, but I think it adresses what you are trying to accomplish. Holding your weapon with two hands doesn't make you react faster - but it could get some momentum going after that first swing, letting you move a bit more quickly after things got going...

Issues -

Delay modifies your initiative count, but should it just use the delay to set your initiative to the top of the round, or by a degree based on your initiative modifier?

Two-handers gain this benefit - why don't single weapon, sword and boarders, or TWFers get this? What makes the style unique? That's one of the reasons I tied it to cleave, rather than weapon handling, but this is a work in process.

[El Jaspero, the Pirate King]

How about changing the feat thusly:

On making your first melee attack or AoO in combat, you may (but are not required to) reroll your initiative using your Strength modifier in place of your Dex modifier. The following round, and every round thereafter, this is your new initiative sequence. You may only reroll your initiative once per combat.

[Democratus]

That might allow you to get two rounds worth of attacks in a row without any response from the enemy. I'm not sure that I would allow a feat to give that much power to a character just because they are using a 2-handed weapon.

[heretic]

El Jaspero's idea seems the best to me. Not as clunky as the others and it holds the possibility of actually lowering the player's inititiative if they get a bad roll.

[MrNexx]

I see what y'all're saying. I'm trying to emulate, somewhat, from 2nd edition the

Hold it. New idea.

Leverage
You are able to maneuver weapons easily if you have both hands on them.
Prerequisites: Strength 13, Combat Reflexes
Benefit: When weilding a two-handed melee weapon, you may use your Strength modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier only for the purposes of determining whether you are flat-footed (and thus vulnerable to, or unable to make, attacks of opprotunity).
Normal: Your Dexterity Modifier is used for initiative.

Example: Bruno the 1st level Fighter has a Strength of 18 and a Dexterity of 14. His two feats are Combat Reflexes and Leverage. He is facing two rogues down with his greatsword. The rogues are 35' away, but Bruno is between two barrels, with his back to a wall, so he can't be flanked.

Bruno rolls a 10 for inititiative, giving him a total of 12. The first rogue has a 16 initiative, while the second has a 13. The first rogue advances and hits. Since his initiative is greater than Bruno is flat footed, and sneak attacked. The second rogue advances and attacks, but because of Leverage, Bruno's initiative is counted as 14, not 12; Bruno is not considered to be flat-footed, so the second rogue cannot sneak attack him (though he can still make a normal attack). Bruno attacks normally on initiative 12.

EDIT: It's sort of a weaker version of Uncanny Dodge... useful, but not for everyone. And the broken sentence is literally how it happened.

[ghostrunner]

Seems to work ok, though it's a bit neutered; it seems too specialized to be all that useful. I'd probably remove the "Combat Reflexes" prereq.

A feat that bases associates initiative with wisdom seems to make sense. Maybe something like this:

Quick Thinker (or whatever)
A character is able to quickly assess a situation and react without hesitation.
Prerequisites: Wisdom 13, Alertness
Benefit: A Character may substitute his or her Wisdom Modifier for his or her dexterity modifer when determining initiative.
Normal: Your Dexterity Modifier is used for initiative.

[MrNexx]

Seems to work ok, though it's a bit neutered; it seems too specialized to be all that useful. I'd probably remove the "Combat Reflexes" prereq.

That's more a matter of a logical prereq than anything... you have to be able to react quickly.

A feat that bases associates initiative with wisdom seems to make sense. Maybe something like this:

Quick Thinker (or whatever)
A character is able to quickly assess a situation and react without hesitation.
Prerequisites: Wisdom 13, Alertness
Benefit: A Character may substitute his or her Wisdom Modifier for his or her dexterity modifer when determining initiative.
Normal: Your Dexterity Modifier is used for initiative.

Personally, I'd associate it with Intelligence, in terms of quick thinking, not wisdom, but wisdom could work on the "instictive reaction" level.

[Picasso007]

Actually, the Combat Reflexes prereq gives me an idea. Forget initiative, how about this...

Leverage
Prerequisites: Str 13+
Benefit: When wielding a 2-handed weapon, the character may make an additional number of Attacks of Opportunity equal to his Strength modifier each round.

Not sure how this should combine with Combat Reflexes; whether they should stack, have Combat Reflexes be a prereq but not have them stack (since this feat really is kinda stepping on Dex's territory anyway), or have them specifically not stack.

[El Jaspero, the Pirate King]

Wow. That's crazy overpowered.

[Jades]

Oy! ('Ake!)

There arn't that many classes who this would benefit. Improved Initiative gives a better bonus than most characters would get from this feat anyways.

[valadil]

Picasso, unfortunately that would stack with combat reflexes, allowing for some crazy AoOs.

I agree with everyone that says that being able to handle a sword shouldn't affect how quickly you assess a situation. Leverage applies more to a system where weapon speed matters. I suppose if you were to add on initiative bonuses or penalties depending on weapon size, then this would make a lot more sense.

I would be interested in a way to bump up your initiative. I have no idea how powerful this is because theres nothing quite like it, but what about something that increased your init by one or two after every round. Sometimes it wouldn't make a difference, but sometimes you'd get to take two turns between some enemies' turns. I guess it would be exploitable if you knew who had what initiatives, so you could get near your foes who you could potentially whack twice.

Jades, I'm loving the DT reference.

[Bakunin]

Valadil has something going there. Using your strength for initative is... not a bad idea and it seems in line with the way D20 works but I think something different would work.

Maybe get crazy complex and have a feat called 'Pummel' where if you successfully hit your opponent for so much she'll get a -1 or -2 or something to initiative in the next round?

-Bak

[Jades]

Re-instate Exploding Dice!

[MrNexx]

Actually, the Combat Reflexes prereq gives me an idea. Forget initiative, how about this...

Leverage
Prerequisites: Str 13+
Benefit: When wielding a 2-handed weapon, the character may make an additional number of Attacks of Opportunity equal to his Strength modifier each round.

Not sure how this should combine with Combat Reflexes; whether they should stack, have Combat Reflexes be a prereq but not have them stack (since this feat really is kinda stepping on Dex's territory anyway), or have them specifically not stack.

I would have them specifically not stack (though you could have both; leverage for when you're fighting with a two-handed weapon, C.R. for when you're not).

[ghostrunner]

Personally, I'd associate it with Intelligence, in terms of quick thinking, not wisdom, but wisdom could work on the "instictive reaction" level.

Hence the "(or whatever)" on the title. So, just change the feat's name to "Instinctive Reaction." Huzzah!
Also, any feat of this nature should explicitly stack with the bonus granted by Improved Initiative; otherwise they're mostly worthless.

[Spuddly]

Wisdom&dex make the most sense of intiative, as it is about being aware of your surroundings. Wisdom is the basis of spot checks and dex represents quickness.

So either you see danger first and have time to react, or catch on a little slower but react quicker.

With a wisdom feat, I'd make it cumulative.

Heightened Senses
Prereqs: Wisdom 14+
Add +2 to both initiative and spot checks. This stacks with improved initiative.

[Democratus]

Wisdom&dex make the most sense of intiative, as it is about being aware of your surroundings. Wisdom is the basis of spot checks and dex represents quickness.

So either you see danger first and have time to react, or catch on a little slower but react quicker.

With a wisdom feat, I'd make it cumulative.

Heightened Senses
Prereqs: Wisdom 14+
Add +2 to both initiative and spot checks. This stacks with improved initiative.

This feat is in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. It is called "Blooded".

...only it doesn't even have a Wis requirement.

[Leperflesh]

Leverage:
prereqs: cleave or something? Wis 15?

You are skilled at pressing your advantage in combat.

For each full combat round (after the first round of combat) in which you make a melee attack which succesfully deals damage, your initiative for the following round increases by 1. Your initiative can increase in this manner up to a total equalling your wisdom modifier.

[optional nerf: After any round in combat in which you fail to deal melee damage, your initiative count returns to its original value]

-Lep

[Spuddly]

This feat is in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.

I should start writing splat books. :P

[ghostrunner]

Leverage:
prereqs: cleave or something? Wis 15?

You are skilled at pressing your advantage in combat.

For each full combat round (after the first round of combat) in which you make a melee attack which succesfully deals damage, your initiative for the following round increases by 1. Your initiative can increase in this manner up to a total equalling your wisdom modifier.

[optional nerf: After any round in combat in which you fail to deal melee damage, your initiative count returns to its original value]

-Lep

I like this a lot. Another optional nerf could be that the player must sacrifice a use of the Cleave feat in order to improve his initiative order, reflecting that though he could continue his attack, he instead prepares for the next.