NPC alignment help

[Choco]

So I got this one major NPC the players just encountered, but unfortunately I still can't decide on a proper alignment for her...

While she never attacks without provocation, occasionally help strangers in need, doesn't do harm to good people/creatures, and puts herself in danger to help her friends (basically like the typical good-aligned char), she is extremely sadistic to those that do fight her. Not only does she not spare anyone, but she makes sure their final moments are as miserable as possible.

For example, when the PC's came across her, she was being attacked by bandits who obviously didn't know how powerful she was. She knew their intention was to mug, rape, then kill her. A few stun/paralysis spells later and she castrated all of them, then left them paralyzed while she watched them bleed to death. As much as they deserved what they got, that is DEFINITELY an evil action.

So, what alignment would you guys suggest in this situation?

And, since I know it will inevitably be mentioned, I know this is a situation that probably shows "how broken the alignment system is", but the game is using the alignment system, that cannot be changed, so please don't turn this into a "why the alignment system sucks" thread.

[RTGoodman]

Neutral.

When in doubt, that's probably your best bet.

[Tallis]

I agree with neutral. Could be lawful neutral.

[Yora]

When it's not completely obvious,take Neutral.

[Rhawin]

The only reason to punish in such a sadistic manner is to enjoy the suffering of others, which is definitely evil. Calculated cruelty is simply Lawful Evil, it doesn't mean that the act is any less evil. One doesn't have to constantly engage in slaughter to be evil.

[Yora]

And one does not have to never do something evil to be not evil.

[Gaiyamato]

Lawful Neutral definately
But could fall into Evil very easily.

[RTGoodman]

The only reason to punish in such a sadistic manner is to enjoy the suffering of others, which is definitely evil. Calculated cruelty is simply Lawful Evil, it doesn't mean that the act is any less evil. One doesn't have to constantly engage in slaughter to be evil.

True, but I still think Neutral is probably a fine fit. Definitely with Evil (and maybe some Lawful) tendencies, though.

[Olorin Maia]

That is a nasty NPC. Remind me to stay away.

[hewhosaysfish]

Engaging in brutal torture with no compunctions?

If she was doing it for the sake of deterrence or something then maybe, maybe, you could persuade me she was LN.

But if she's just doing it for her own satisfaction, to revel in her defeat of her enemies then, sorry, but she's LE.

[Gaiyamato]

Engaging in brutal torture with no compunctions?

If she was doing it for the sake of deterrence or something then maybe, maybe, you could persuade me she was LN.

But if she's just doing it for her own satisfaction, to revel in her defeat of her enemies then, sorry, but she's LE.

As the guidelines for Alignment states, if she does a lot of good things then does some bad things and seems that she cannot make up her mind for an alignment on that axis then she is neutral. Maybe she spends most of her time being good except for those few times when she is really really evil.

Either way she is Lawful Neutral tending Evil.

[Steward]

I would make her any variety of Neutral, or maybe Evil if your PCs can or will ever have to encounter her dark side.

[Killer Angel]

As the guidelines for Alignment states, if she does a lot of good things then does some bad things and seems that she cannot make up her mind for an alignment on that axis then she is neutral. Maybe she spends most of her time being good except for those few times when she is really really evil.

Either way she is Lawful Neutral tending Evil.

I could say that, committing such cruel acts of vengeance, should leave her with a sense of remorse.
Even if this retaliatory violence, is done not so often, i'd say that, if she feels no remorse, she's evil. (LE)

In regard to the facts that she helps those in need, and protects the good people, I'm thinking to a figure ala "patriarch Old Testament-Style". Or, if you prefere, ala "medieval priest".
They follow their law, helping poor souls, donating to poors... and crushing with an iron talon those who commits evil deeds.
If you don't want to give too much importance to the lawfulness, you could say LE tending Neutral.

[Riffington]

How often is this happening?
I mean, most people get attacked by bandits maybe once in their lives?
I ask this because normal people take steps to avoid fights. If she knows she is this brutal, she has a duty to take such steps. She should be avoiding dark alleys, crossing the street/hurrying up when the half-orc starts walking up behind her, backing down in arguments when the other guy starts looking violent, etc. If despite all these good precautions, she is attacked, she's probably neutral*.

But if she is sort of looking forward to doing this again, walks around at night looking like she's defenseless (knowing she may be attacked and sort of hoping she might be), or otherwise doing things that will get her into a fight... evil.

You've told us nothing regarding the lawful/chaotic axis, so no judgments there.

*I'm very confused by "While she never attacks without provocation, occasionally help strangers in need, doesn't do harm to good people/creatures, and puts herself in danger to help her friends (basically like the typical good-aligned char)" because that describes the typical neutral-aligned char. Good has to be a little better than that.

[Choco]

Hmm, yeah I have been leaning towards lawful neutral myself.

In regard to the facts that she helps those in need, and protects the good people, I'm thinking to a figure ala "patriarch Old Testament-Style". Or, if you prefere, ala "medieval priest".
They follow their law, helping poor souls, donating to poors... and crushing with an iron talon those who commits evil deeds.
If you don't want to give too much importance to the lawfulness, you could say LE tending Neutral.

That is actually very close to how I planned her. However, she doesn't help others because it is her duty, her only duty is as the scout/eyes and ears of the deity she serves (who is lawful neutral) and she helps others on her own. She just has zero tolerance for people who make life hell for the good folk trying to go about making a decent living.

Engaging in brutal torture with no compunctions?

If she was doing it for the sake of deterrence or something then maybe, maybe, you could persuade me she was LN.

But if she's just doing it for her own satisfaction, to revel in her defeat of her enemies then, sorry, but she's LE.

She doesn't enjoy watching the suffering of others, if that were the case she would have dominated those bandits and made them castrate themselves She does, however, take satisfaction in knowing that they got some payback for their deeds before they died. In her mind, she is avenging those who were wronged, since the system in place has obviously failed them.

How often is this happening?
I mean, most people get attacked by bandits maybe once in their lives?
I ask this because normal people take steps to avoid fights. If she knows she is this brutal, she has a duty to take such steps. She should be avoiding dark alleys, crossing the street/hurrying up when the half-orc starts walking up behind her, backing down in arguments when the other guy starts looking violent, etc. If despite all these good precautions, she is attacked, she's probably neutral*.

But if she is sort of looking forward to doing this again, walks around at night looking like she's defenseless (knowing she may be attacked and sort of hoping she might be), or otherwise doing things that will get her into a fight... evil.

You've told us nothing regarding the lawful/chaotic axis, so no judgments there.

*I'm very confused by "While she never attacks without provocation, occasionally help strangers in need, doesn't do harm to good people/creatures, and puts herself in danger to help her friends (basically like the typical good-aligned char)" because that describes the typical neutral-aligned char. Good has to be a little better than that.

Well, in medieval times, crimes in general were much more common due to the lack of a police force and the fact that the soldiers employed by the local lord didn't care about anything that didn't directly affect their lord.

She doesn't seek these encounters, but she doesn't try to avoid them when they come her way. The way she sees it, she has the power to put an end to this right then and there, and if she lets them go then she views herself as responsible for all of their future crimes.

For the law/chaos axis, I would say lawful. As I mentioned above she is a scout for her lawful neutral deity, and performs her duties to the letter.

Come to think of it, you are right about the description there, that does fit neutral much better.

That is a nasty NPC. Remind me to stay away.

Not surprisingly, the PC's had the same reaction They were so scared/confused by what they saw her do that they just hid and watched till she was done and they felt that she had "calmed down" enough so that it was safe to talk to her. They may have just walked the other way if not for the fact that they needed to talk to her.

[Killer Angel]

That is actually very close to how I planned her. However, she doesn't help others because it is her duty, her only duty is as the scout/eyes and ears of the deity she serves (who is lawful neutral) and she helps others on her own. She just has zero tolerance for people who make life hell for the good folk trying to go about making a decent living.

Then I agree with the lawful neutral, maybe with some tendencies toward evil.

[hamishspence]

Fits quite neatly into Scourge Maiden from Shining South- sadistic to enemies- kind hearted to others.

This PRC is LN, LE, or NE only.

Depending on how Lawful this character is, could be LN.

(CG's sometimes have a "revenge-centric" mindset- the Avenger in Dragon 310 fits quite well. However, most vengeful but not seriously malevolent characters tend to be Lawful- vindictiveness is commonly associated with Lawful alignments, according to Exemplars of Evil)

[Choco]

Fits quite neatly into Scourge Maiden from Shining South- sadistic to enemies- kind hearted to others.

This PRC is LN, LE, or NE only.

Depending on how Lawful this character is, could be LN.

ooooo, I'm gonna have to check that out for further fluff, thanks!

[hamishspence]

well, kind hearted if you run LN as mostly kind, cruel only to enemies.

If you think of Neutral as a mix of Good and Evil behaviour, but not behaving Evil often enough to qualify for an Evil alignment, then Neutral rather than Good or Evil, does work.

(The book also has monsters and spells that can be used anywhere, though most of it is Faerun geography)

[Blue Ghost]

Lawful neutral is my bet as well, considering what you told about her beliefs and value system.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Look! Actual sources!

Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
. . .
People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.

Emphasis mine.

Someone who degrades the people she is fighting for the lulz is obviously non-Good; the fact that she helps out friends on occasion still puts her in the Neutral category. Depending on the degree of degradation, she's either Neutral or Evil - though for someone who tortures for the lulz, I'd put her in Evil immediately; particularly in light of the example given.

You didn't mention anything about her Law/Chaos aspects so unless any of these apply to her

Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.

Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.

I'd put her at Neutral Evil.

EDIT: that's what I get for skimming a thread.

Considering the reasons that she debases life, I'm shifting my analysis to Lawful Evil. Remember that Neutral people are still squeamish about killing folks in cold blood - and killing someone after you have incapacitated them is certainly cold blood.

[Jergmo]

I'd say True Neutral leaning towards Evil.

[SoD]

I also have introduced a new NPC whose alignment is under debate; a human who earns a living by "hiring out guards, some of the best guards you can get, they won't fall asleep, they won't be easily tricked, you can't knock them unconcious, or drug them, or bribe them or poison them. They won't complain about the rain, nor will they rust."

So far I'm thinking LN. However...these guards of his; he raises the dead. Turns dead stuff into undead stuff, and gets it to guard stuff, for a price.

He doesn't think what he's doing is wrong, and dislikes being refured to as evil, purely because he raises the dead. He doesn't get his 'minions' to harm anyone, unless it's through someone trying to get what they're guarding.

LN? LE? LN with E tendancies? What are our thoughts, playgrounders in the playground?

[The Dark Fiddler]

I also have introduced a new NPC whose alignment is under debate; a human who earns a living by "hiring out guards, some of the best guards you can get, they won't fall asleep, they won't be easily tricked, you can't knock them unconcious, or drug them, or bribe them or poison them. They won't complain about the rain, nor will they rust."

So far I'm thinking LN. However...these guards of his; he raises the dead. Turns dead stuff into undead stuff, and gets it to guard stuff, for a price.

He doesn't think what he's doing is wrong, and dislikes being refured to as evil, purely because he raises the dead. He doesn't get his 'minions' to harm anyone, unless it's through someone trying to get what they're guarding.

LN? LE? LN with E tendancies? What are our thoughts, playgrounders in the playground?

If I remember correctly (IIRC), Necromancy, RAW at least, is evil.

I think that's bull, but that's MY OPINION. I wouldn't give him evil just because he deals with the dead.

[Tiki Snakes]

The OP's NPC sounds very much like (A particularly badass) Lawful Neutral. Mostly because of the motivations behind the acts. Depending on what they were, it could have veered more Lawful Evil, or even Chaotic Neutral.

Sounds like a very interesting npc, in my opinion. I like the grim, remorseless (but essentially empathic and well-meaning, perhaps kind of emotionally scarred) nature she seems to have.

Your necromancer is definately neutral, (mostly because there is no suggestion of real, Good aligned style altruism or going-out-of-his-way). He's all about being a legitimate business, from the sounds of it, so Lawful also sounds like a good fit.

I'm sure some might argue he must be Evil on account of using 'Evil' spells, but really, that's not an argument that ever really washed with me and my personal taste.

The thing is, you being the DM, it comes down with how your universe functions. Does his utilising the Negative Energy Plane increase the amount of (apparently innately evil) negative energy in the world, and thus make him a foul and sinister person automatically, or not? Otherwise, it's just a matter of people's perception and attitude towards Necromancy and the Undead, which is purely subjective and not really a matter for Detect Evil. (Though it may still get him linched.)

[Shpadoinkle]

Sound true neutral to me. The 'tries to help people no matter what' is good, clearly, but the inflicting of quite a lot of pain for no real reason besides revenge is pretty evil. So, yeah, I'd go with TN.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I also have introduced a new NPC whose alignment is under debate; a human who earns a living by "hiring out guards, some of the best guards you can get, they won't fall asleep, they won't be easily tricked, you can't knock them unconcious, or drug them, or bribe them or poison them. They won't complain about the rain, nor will they rust."

So far I'm thinking LN. However...these guards of his; he raises the dead. Turns dead stuff into undead stuff, and gets it to guard stuff, for a price.

He doesn't think what he's doing is wrong, and dislikes being refured to as evil, purely because he raises the dead. He doesn't get his 'minions' to harm anyone, unless it's through someone trying to get what they're guarding.

LN? LE? LN with E tendancies? What are our thoughts, playgrounders in the playground?

If he is doing the necromancy, then he is Evil. However, if he is merely business partners with a necromancer he could be Neutral.

As has been noted, creating undead is an Always Evil act (crazy splatbooks excepted) - so if it is something you do without qualm, you must be Evil. It's like stabbing orphans for fun - only an Evil person would do that. That said, handling the business end of an Evil enterprise may be seem as a non-Evil occupation - YMMV.

Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic - look at my previous post, and see which qualities best describe him.

[Mr.Moron]

Someone who is stunned/paralyzed is no longer a threat. Stopping at that point to torture them, and let them bleed to death is evil plain and simple. The NPC is not even remotely close to Neutral. That's so far in the deep end of the evil pool, light isn't even getting through the water anymore.

[Holocron Coder]

I concur with the majority of the replies.

OP's char - LN, it doesn't sound like she's torturing so much as executing sentence (a rather painful one, but one nonetheless).

other post's char - N / LN, I never agreed with creating undead from readily available corpses (that you didn't slaughter yourself, or did so in battle) as being immediately evil. Now, if you start creating undead of holy paladins... yeah, then maybe you're going a bit far.

Of course, by RAW, both are horribly evil.

[Yahzi]

So I got this one major NPC the players just encountered, but unfortunately I still can't decide on a proper alignment for her....

Chaotic Evil.

She is only fair to people she wants to be fair to. That is, she chooses who to treat as equals, and who to treat as objects, based mostly on her own whim.