Using Grapple and Improved Grab

[Zergrusheddie]

The group has a fight coming up and I think using SNA 2 to get a crocodile on the enemy caster to lock him down is a decent tactic. Reading through the Crocodile and Grapple entries though, it seems odd. For example:

1. It says that Crocodiles can make an instant grapple check to hold as soon as they hit with their bite. In Grapple, it says that you deal Unarmed Strike damage here. What's the Unarmed Strike damage of a Crocodile?..

2. You can forgo an attack attack to move with your opponent providing you beat a grapple check. I understand that but I have a problem with the whole "receive a +4 bonus against Pinned targets." If Pin only lasts one round, how could you Pin and then move?

3. Is Grapple a somewhat effective way of shutting down a caster? With Pin, they are unable to speak and they can't use Somatic Components. Can at will powers still be activated while pinned?

Best of luck
-Eddie

[Eldariel]

The group has a fight coming up and I think using SNA 2 to get a crocodile on the enemy caster to lock him down is a decent tactic. Reading through the Crocodile and Grapple entries though, it seems odd. For example:

1. It says that Crocodiles can make an instant grapple check to hold as soon as they hit with their bite. In Grapple, it says that you deal Unarmed Strike damage here. What's the Unarmed Strike damage of a Crocodile?..

Improved Grab overwrites that; you deal damage equal to the natural weapon you grabbed with instead. That said, if you had to figure out a Crocodile's unarmed damage, just check equivalent-sized humanoid's base UA damage and go with that.

2. You can forgo an attack attack to move with your opponent providing you beat a grapple check. I understand that but I have a problem with the whole "receive a +4 bonus against Pinned targets." If Pin only lasts one round, how could you Pin and then move?

Use your standard action as an attack action to pin, and move action to move.

3. Is Grapple a somewhat effective way of shutting down a caster? With Pin, they are unable to speak and they can't use Somatic Components. Can at will powers still be activated while pinned?

Grapple is somewhat effective, yes. It's less effective than a focused AoO build, less effective than just charging them for lethal but more effective than readying a melee attack to disrupt casting without notable reach or lockdown capabilities, and more effective than hitting them in the face for mediocre damage.

I don't know what kinds of "At will"-powers you're referring to, but many abilities such as SLAs and Su-abilities do not have components and can thus be used even pinned. But the primary issue with Grapple is that without iteratives + pounce, you cannot usually achieve Pin and thus prevent speaking on the first turn, leaving Dimension Door-type effects usable for the grappled caster. But forcing a caster to Dimension Door is a great use of SNAII and the Crocodile can go back for more still.

[Zergrusheddie]

Improved Grab overwrites that; you deal damage equal to the natural weapon you grabbed with instead. That said, if you had to figure out a Crocodile's unarmed damage, just check equivalent-sized humanoid's base UA damage and go with that.

Could a Croc Bite, Grab, and then do Bite or does Imp Grab not allow that?

[quick_comment]

Grapple is utterly useless for stopping casters past level 7, because at level 7, casters get freedom of movement and/or dimension door.

The only way to get grapple to work is to do it in an AMF or have the DM nerf freedom of movement and then do it in a dimensional lock.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Grapple is utterly useless for stopping casters past level 7, because at level 7, casters get freedom of movement and/or dimension door.

The only way to get grapple to work is to do it in an AMF or have the DM nerf freedom of movement and then do it in a dimensional lock.

Not utterly useless. My Druid in the ToS is currently making a Gish archer deal with a grapple every turn from my pet, which he has to burn an action and a spell slot to get out of. Great for lockdown, and how many characters keep more than 3 DDs prepared?

[Eldariel]

Could a Croc Bite, Grab, and then do Bite or does Imp Grab not allow that?

No damage from the Grab itself: See Improved Grab. All future Grapple-checks deal damage equal to the damage of the limb doing the Grab though (in Crocodile's case, the Bite-damage).

If it had Constrict, this would be different - indeed, Improved Grab > Constrict > Rake creatures are incredibly annoying if they get the Grapple off.

Not utterly useless. My Druid in the ToS is currently making a Gish archer deal with a grapple every turn from my pet, which he has to burn an action and a spell slot to get out of. Great for lockdown, and how many characters keep more than 3 DDs prepared?

I'd wager he was referring to Freedom of Movement/Heart of Whatever Replicates Freedom of Movement.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I'd wager he was referring to Freedom of Movement/Heart of Whatever Replicates Freedom of Movement.

FoM can't be cast in a grapple, and doesn't last long enough to justify it as an all-day buff. Heart of Water is another story, but that's basically the only defense for a non-tank.

[Eldariel]

FoM can't be cast in a grapple, and doesn't last long enough to justify it as an all-day buff. Heart of Water is another story, but that's basically the only defense for a non-tank.

Freedom of Movement lasts 10 min/level so Extend it a couple of times at CL ~18 and it's doable with 3 5th level slots for an all-day buff.

[Deepblue706]

Freedom of Movement lasts 10 min/level so Extend it a couple of times at CL ~18 and it's doable with 3 5th level slots for an all-day buff.

At all levels of 7 and beyond?

[Indon]

Grapple is utterly useless for stopping casters past level 7, because at level 7, casters get freedom of movement and/or dimension door.

The only way to get grapple to work is to do it in an AMF or have the DM nerf freedom of movement and then do it in a dimensional lock.

If a CR 2 crocodile has 3 HD and a CR 4 crocodile has 7 HD, how many HD does a CR 7 crodocile have? 14ish?

Well, I guess you can advance a giant crocodile to 14 HD by RAW. Also, you could give your crocodile templates.

Paragon Crocodiles are worthless!

[Eldariel]

At all levels of 7 and beyond?

Of course not, but around level 15 or so; level ~12 if you want to expend quite a bit of resources. My point was that it's doable way before Epic.

[quick_comment]

Not to mention that you can DD out, and <i>then</i> cast freedom of movement.

Or you can have contigency(FoM) or contingent Freedom of Movement, set to go off if you are grappled.

Or you can cast ghostform, or polymorph into something too big or too small to be grappled or easily held.

[derfenrirwolv]

Not to mention that you can DD out, and <i>then</i> cast freedom of movement.

If you're a mystic theurge , sure.

[quick_comment]

If you're a mystic theurge , sure.

Or a cleric, or a bard. Or a rainbow servant. Or you have a command word item of it. Or you are a sorcerer and have cross class UMD and activate a scroll of it. Or heart of water. Or contingent FoM, etc, etc, etc.

[woodenbandman]

You actually can't cast a spell in the round after you DD. "After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn"