Exalted Deeds vs. Vile Darkness

[Mindleshank]

Alright so i have read both of these books and it seems to me that the majority of the things in Exalted deeds are way better that those in Vile darkness. Ya know feats, Spells, descriptions, etc. Is it just me or is the "good" book over powered well more so than its opposite.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Ur-Priest, Soul Eater, Cancer Mage.

And a lot of the stuff in BoED looks really good at first, but if you run the numbers turns out to be a nerf(Saint, Vow of Poverty).

[Fixer]

From a purely numeric perspective, many things in BoED are overpowered. That is because they have ROLEPLAYING requirements that will cost you dearly if you fail to follow them.

[kamikasei]

The logic is supposed to be that the highest Good is individually more powerful, but beset by infinite legions and/or hordes of darkness. Whether they pulled that off, of course...

[ZeroNumerous]

(Saint).

You'll have to explain this one to me. I've seen Saint, and for just +2 LA it looked pretty damn good.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

You'll have to explain this one to me. I've seen Saint, and for just +2 LA it looked pretty damn good.

2 LA hurts. The roleplaying requirements are incredibly harsh, as well, but for 2 levels you should get a lot more.

[Mindleshank]

But come on role playing requirements those sound like something that could be enforced or likely not.

[kamikasei]

But come on role playing requirements those sound like something that could be enforced or likely not.

Well, yes. But since it's a roleplaying game, it's expected that they will be. Both books specifically exhort DMs to carefully manage their use in their games. If a DM lets a player take a mechanically powerful template from the BoED and then doesn't hold the player to the high standards that Exalted alignment entails, it's his own fault.

[Gralamin]

BoVD has the cooler spells anyway. Mindrape, Apoclypse from the Sky....

All Exalted Deeds has is a reflavored Mindrape they call Sanctify the Wicked

[Mindleshank]

Well, yes. But since it's a roleplaying game, it's expected that they will be. Both books specifically exhort DMs to carefully manage their use in their games. If a DM lets a player take a mechanically powerful template from the BoED and then doesn't hold the player to the high standards that Exalted alignment entails, it's his own fault.

Okay but what about non-role playing situations like a PvP doesn't that sound more or less overpowered. I mean you can't get the same benefit for BoVD, right correct me if i am wrong because that is what is thread i for.

[T.G. Oskar]

You'll have to explain this one to me. I've seen Saint, and for just +2 LA it looked pretty damn good.

Well, for starters, it's no Feral or Mineral Warrior (the usual broken templates)

Second, it has pretty stringy requirements to follow (three "miracles", at least three Exalted feats and approval by the DM)

Third, the DR provided is insanely easy to break (at first it's against magic, right at the moment most monsters have weapons that are considered magical), but then it becomes hilariously ridiculous to break (against evil, which means every single demon bypasses it naturally)

Fourth, resistance to fire 10 by the moment Resist Energy grants 20.

Fifth, tongues. Sure, that means you can speak with everybody. However, mechanically it has no point unless you are a Diplomancer.

Sixth, the spell-like abilities are all based off orisons. Which means you can cast one bunch of 0-level spells at will. By the time you get them, they are well beyond utility.

Seventh, darkvision at the very least. Which still can't penetrate darkness, and most of the time it's gained through a better spell (ebon eyes) or racially.

Eighth, +4 racial bonus on Fort saves vs. poison. Most of the time, you either pass the Fort save without the bonus, or you still have a problem to succeed with it.

Mostly, after considering all the abilities, what you really get is a +2 to the DC of any and all abilities you have (which means a 10% increase in the chances to land a save-or-die stackable with any others), 1d6 holy damage with all melee attacks (when by the moment you get it, you already can deal far much more damage; still, it's apparently stackable with holy weapons) and fast healing between 1 to 10 nearly permanently (depending on your HD).

Perhaps the most important is the immunity to acid, cold, electricity, disease (which is kinda useful except you can get a wand of Remove Disease and call it a day), petrifaction (one of the actually rare immunities, if the chances of petrifaction weren't so rare), a permanent magic circle against evil at double strength (meaning twice the deflection bonus to AC, twice the resistance bonus to saves, immunity to mind-affecting spells, possession, and immunity to summoned creatures so as much as any of them are evil or done by evil creatures) and permanent lesser globe of invulnerability (which means you're immune to all 3rd level spells or less, including the utility buffs, which you can't exactly turn down and it doesn't work against spell-like abilities and spells cast by items, so a wand of glitterdust affects you the same)

For the really good things, you get a massive penalty: you're forced to take two "levels" of saint (which grant you nothing but a level adjustment), and the absurd "one strike and you lose them forever" rule. Seriously: you make one single mistake, you can't return to be a saint ever. EVER.

Hence, why most people see it as weak when "run by the numbers". A +2 LA template can give better than this, without the stringent restrictions.

Oh, and I almost forgot. The bonus to ability scores mostly benefits a paladin, to which the template was mostly built for. A cleric would be capable of benefitting, but not as much as a paladin. A favored soul might have a bit of benefit as well. Which, when you stop and think, means that most of the things it provides you already are provided by something else.

I'd say the saint is a decent template for +2 LA, but it needed a bit more of work for the utterly stringent restriction of it. Come to think about it, when compared to a similar template, the saint becomes a bit weak (as in, when you compare it to a half-celestial for example, which is coincidentally also a +2 a +4 LA template)

Well, here's enough so I still can pass some info despite the lurking ninjas.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Okay but what about non-role playing situations like a PvP doesn't that sound more or less overpowered. I mean you can't get the same benefit for BoVD, right correct me if i am wrong because that is what is thread i for.

Many have strict mechanical consequences as well(the Sanctified spells, VoP). Saint is balanced with the LA, the RP requirements that essentially require you to never make a mistake are what render it useless.

[mistformsquirrl]

Okay but what about non-role playing situations like a PvP doesn't that sound more or less overpowered. I mean you can't get the same benefit for BoVD, right correct me if i am wrong because that is what is thread i for.

Then don't use it in those situations.

The game isn't designed around stuff like arena matches and whatnot. (Not that they aren't a lot of fun at times; but you've got to house-rule out things for balance on occasion)

The game is built for role-playing; meaning the rules are going to assume you'll be subjected to situations where you're devotion to being Exalted will be called into question.

Exalted characters face restrictions that most Good characters don't - and good characters are already more restricted than the other two alignments on the GNE scale to begin with.

Evil rewards itself by what it is - It has the easy ways out for everything. An evil character can lie, cheat, extort, murder, pillage - essentially an evil character can do whatever they like. Take what they want by any means necessary; grow their power through terrible deals with the lower planes, etc...

So Exalted stuff is a way for a character who goes above and beyond merely "doing the right thing" to gain some power. After all - Evil has many ways of putting such a character at a disadvantage through treachery; so it bears to reason that in a game where the powers of Good and Evil are manifest, that Good is going to have it's method of countering Evil's methods.

That's the way I look at it at least.

[quick_comment]

BoVD has the cooler spells anyway. Mindrape, Apoclypse from the Sky....

All Exalted Deeds has is a reflavored Mindrape they call Sanctify the Wicked

Hammer of Righteousness is awesome. Uncapped, d6 force damage, ignores cover and concealment, not affected by spell turning.

And its a level 3 spell. It has a sacrifice component, but thats what sheltered vitality is for.

Exalted fury is good if you have a way to get around the "you die" part.

[ZeroNumerous]

The roleplaying requirements are incredibly harsh, as well, but for 2 levels you should get a lot more.

Bah, fluff is irrelevant. I meant on a mechanical basis, which TG Oskar provided nicely.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Hammer of Righteousness is awesome. Uncapped, d6 force damage, ignores cover and concealment, not affected by spell turning.

And its a level 3 spell. It has a sacrifice component, but thats what sheltered vitality is for.

Exalted fury is good if you have a way to get around the "you die" part.

Jade Phoenix Mage?

Also, BoED gets Greater Luminous Armor, which is nice.

[ZeroNumerous]

Jade Phoenix Mage?

Or that Wu Jen 9 spell whose name escapes me. Makes you immune to everything for a little while.

[quick_comment]

Jade Phoenix Mage?

Also, BoED gets Greater Luminous Armor, which is nice.

Hmm...

I suppose you could cast delayed exalted fury (talk your GM into a sudden delay feat), then explode yourself with jade phoenix mage, and then the exalted fury goes off and you reform.

You could also use timeless body.

Or that Wu Jen 9 spell whose name escapes me. Makes you immune to everything for a little while.

Doesnt that one also say "you die" ?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Hmm...

I suppose you could cast delayed exalted fury (talk your GM into a sudden delay feat), then explode yourself with jade phoenix mage, and then the exalted fury goes off and you reform.

You could also use timeless body.



Doesnt that one also say "you die" ?

But combo'd with JPM...

[quick_comment]

But combo'd with JPM...

Yeah, if you know when it runs out. But if a player tried to pull that trick on me I would say: "the wizard over there casts dispel magic. What is the caster level of your uberspell?"

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Yeah, if you know when it runs out. But if a player tried to pull that trick on me I would say: "the wizard over there casts dispel magic. What is the caster level of your uberspell?"

"Thank you". Dispel is actually very nice, since it eliminates the need for JPM to make you immune to death.

It's a 3-part chain. First, you cast the Wu-Jen one(It essentially is the best buff spells, all at once, and mkes you immune to nearly everything, but you die after a round/level). Then you cast Exalted Fury, but don't die thanks to the Wu-Jen spell. Then you blow yourself up(JPM). Since you're already dead, the Wu-Jen spell running out isn't an issue. And then JPM makes you reform in a couple minutes. What is this "speedbump" people are talking about?

[Fixer]

Fifth, tongues. Sure, that means you can speak with everybody. However, mechanically it has no point unless you are a Diplomancer.

Oh, and I almost forgot. The bonus to ability scores mostly benefits a paladin, to which the template was mostly built for.

Actually, I had an exalted druid who used the Tongues ability to great effect to communicate with allies while wild-shaped into a Celestial Blink Dog. Tongues works no matter what form you are in. Combine the Vows with Natural Spell and you can really pump up an exalted VoP druid.

[quick_comment]

Actually, I had an exalted druid who used the Tongues ability to great effect to communicate with allies while wild-shaped into a Celestial Blink Dog. Tongues works no matter what form you are in. Combine the Vows with Natural Spell and you can really pump up an exalted VoP druid.

Oh yeah, because druids need pumping up.

[Fixer]

I was pointing out that Tongues from being a Saint is useful outside the Diplomancer.

Actually, being a Saint is a horrible stifling to power. All those pesky behavior restrictions.

[quick_comment]

I was pointing out that Tongues from being a Saint is useful outside the Diplomancer.

Actually, being a Saint is a horrible stifling to power. All those pesky behavior restrictions.

Until you diplomize your God into giving you special dispensation to sin but remain exalted.

[AstralFire]

I hate the tongues spell. One of those spells that can ruin atmosphere at low levels. :P Yeah, it's useful.

[Lamech]

Mind Rape + Love's Pain=dead anything. Thats pretty powerful in the book of vile darkness.

Isn't there some vermin lord combo you can get insanly powerful with as well in BoVD? And then there is sacrificing people, always great fun. Also liqued pain + planar bindings. No BoVD has some nasty stuff in it.

[Eldariel]

Book of Exalted Deeds has like one incredibly strong crunchy bit: Starmantle Cloak

Beyond that, the book has nothing amazingly powerful; just par de course stuff, some massive overhauls for character (VoP instead of items) and usual PrCs. Words of Creation is probably the second strongest bit in the book.


BoVD, on the other hand, is full of brokenness already mentioned in this thread. BoVD wins out hands down in terms of power.

[AstralFire]

I'm a huge fan of the book, mechanically, for Words of Creation (I love bards) and Exalted Arcanists (I loved Sorcerers before I ran into Psionics.) I know E. Arcanist is mostly a wash since you delay your already delayed spellcasting a level, but I like being able to do sacred fire damage with the usual blaster arsenal.

[Fixer]

Until you diplomize your God into giving you special dispensation to sin but remain exalted.

Any GM that allows that shouldn't be GMing an exalted character.

There is a reason for that "For Mature Audiences" sticker on the front of the book that doesn't relate to porn. It requires a mature behavior and attitude as well.