Paladins fall, everyone dies

[quick_comment]

Im thinking of running a 1 shot game where everyone has to play exalted character or paladins, and the entire point of the game would be I try to make them fall. Maybe make this game a prelude to an evil campaign

Not the utterly absurd "you just bought a drink from an evil man, you fall"

but ranging from actual moral dilemmas to semi-absurd things like "you spent so much money at the arms dealer that you have caused massive inflation in this town, leading to collapse of the economic system, chaos, crime and starvation. You should have thought out the consequences of your actions. You fall"

Obviously the feat that lets you know if a given action would cause you to fall would be banned.

Does anyone have ideas for this/does this sound fun?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

but ranging from actual moral dilemmas to semi-absurd things like "you spent so much money at the arms dealer that you have caused massive inflation in this town, leading to collapse of the economic system, chaos, crime and starvation. You should have thought out the consequences of your actions. You fall"

Those greedy capitalist pig dogs and their decadent free market economics!

Does anyone have ideas for this/does this sound fun?

About as fun as reading the Enquirer.

[Mongoose87]

I think your players will lynch you. I know I, for one, would smack you with a halibut.

[quick_comment]

I think your players will lynch you. I know I, for one, would smack you with a halibut.

Just in case its not clear, they would all know ahead of time. It would probably be run online anyway.

[Lolzords]

Does anyone have ideas for this/does this sound fun?

Honestly? No, it doesn't sound fun in the slightest. I imagine that the DM sits there giggling while everyone else is fed up.

[JMobius]

The bizarre sport some GMs seem to make out of trying to provoke paladins to fall is something I've never quite been able to wrap my head around. I really appreciate the classic noble hero archetype, and were I to play such a character having it purposefully and intentionally subverted without prior consent would make me not want to bother coming back.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, with the right group, this could be fun. But then, with the 'right' group an enjoyable game of FATAL can be had. So I would say, unless your players are up to it, no, no way in hells should any DM attempt this.

[Fixer]

Given that the GM intends on having the characters fall, possesses all the power in the game universe to cause the characters to fall, and is the ultimate judge of whether or not the actions of the characters cause them to fall, I see no fun in it whatsoever. It is a railroad plot with the players as spectators.

[AmberVael]

Well, the idea of playing a paladin who I knew was going to fall could be fun...
But not if I fell for something absurd. The situation you put up there? No. I wouldn't buy that. I'd want my character to fall for very legitimate reasons.

[Mordokai]

I think your players will lynch you. I know I, for one, would smack you with a halibut.

Oh hell yeah!

First of all, railroading your players into playing a particular class is bad enough to start with. Especially if it's class as unlikeable as paladin. But if you're doing it only so you can screw the players by making them fall later on... well, lets just say you deserve everything you get from the players side.

[FoE]

"you spent so much money at the arms dealer that you have caused massive inflation in this town, leading to collapse of the economic system, chaos, crime and starvation. You should have thought out the consequences of your actions. You fall"

DIABOLUS EX MACHINA!

[mistformsquirrl]

Gonna agree with Fixer and Raven's Cry (except that part about FATAL - it's mere presence in a 15 mile radius is unenjoyable!) - you're essentially looking at something that would require a *very* narrow type of personality to play.

The only way I see it working is as a slapstick comedy campaign; where Paladins fall/atone/fall/atone repeatedly.

Trying to play it straight however would likely leave you with a group of dissatisfied players OR a dissatisfied DM (since said players managed to avoid falling). If the players know they're supposed to fall... well why not just write the fall into their backstory and play an evil campaign instead?

--

Also in relation to the 2nd post:

I so want to roll a paladin with a Hammer and Sickle now.

*trades Smite Evil for Smite Capitalist Swine*

[quick_comment]

The only way I see it working is as a slapstick comedy campaign; where Paladins fall/atone/fall/atone repeatedly.

Thats basically the idea I was going for. Not any sort of high fantasy campaign.

[hamishspence]

Some variants have an intermediate area between Fall and No Fall.

Partial Fall. I.E. for a minor breach of the code (whether evil or not) you lose some, but not all, of the benefits of the class, for a short period.

Quintessenial Paladin 2 has this variant- might be more fun than full Falls.

[Steward]

That could be fun. Not for me personally, but I can see how you could make it fun and interesting, especially if you're upfront about the point and you're reasonable about it so it doesn't feel as if you're running the whole game and the players are just watching from the sidelines.

[Frosty]

If I were a player I'd just kill a baby and fall immediately so we can get the next evil campaign started.

[Mongoose87]

Thats basically the idea I was going for. Not any sort of high fantasy campaign.

You need to make clearer that it's comedy. To me, it just sounded like you wanted to center a campaign around being a jerk.

[AstralFire]

I think I'd play it. I got a very slapstick feel from the opening post, myself - everyone saying he's a horriblebadmean person should note that this would be the premise of the game, and the players would be in on it. Problem is, it will be very taxing on the DM to come up with more and more complex situations that could potentially cause a player to fall without resorting to fiat.

You need to make clearer that it's comedy. To me, it just sounded like you wanted to center a campaign around being a jerk.

Just in case its not clear, they would all know ahead of time. It would probably be run online anyway.

You mean like that? I know your first post was before his second, but still. :P

[Ravens_cry]

--

Also in relation to the 2nd post:

I so want to roll a paladin with a Hammer and Sickle now.

*trades Smite Evil for Smite Capitalist Swine*

Oh gods,that sounds awesome.
Hail the Revolution, Comrade!

[13_CBS]

I'd actually be quite interested in playing such a game--to make a character, then, with the DM's help, watch him break into pieces over a period of time.

[Quietus]

I think I'd play it. I got a very slapstick feel from the opening post, myself - everyone saying he's a horriblebadmean person should note that this would be the premise of the game, and the players would be in on it. Problem is, it will be very taxing on the DM to come up with more and more complex situations that could potentially cause a player to fall without resorting to fiat.

This. Since the players are in on it, and it's been stated that it will be a "one shot" game... that makes it pretty clear to me that it's just a way to goof off and have some slapsticky fun. And I'd be willing to give it a shot, as a one-shot.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I am firmly behind this idea - because that is the only way to stab it in the back.

[Eldariel]

It sorta sounds like Paranoia. So make sure the players have the right mindset. It'd be ****ing awesome! Paranoia is ****ing awesome too as long as the players keep a lighthearted atmosphere.

So yeah, as long as players realize that they will fall sooner or later and they might fall for the most ridiculous reasons, it becomes a sorta "who falls last"-contest; they might even play each other to fall OOC. Yeah, I'd play that! It'll also be ridiculously fun just to hear the reasons you fell for, just like the it's awesome to be told which treason you just commited in Paranoia.

[hamishspence]

I'd actually be quite interested in playing such a game--to make a character, then, with the DM's help, watch him break into pieces over a period of time.

Abaddon, the Villain in the story sidebars of Quintessenial Paladin 2 (who sort of redeems himself at the end) has some interesting words to say on difficult choices:

Spoiler

Show

"Do you know why I fell, Sir Knight? Why I am... what was the catechism: 'marked with the seals of shame, vengeance, and anathema'?"

"The knowledge is irrelevant. I can sense your taint, Abaddon."

"I followed the code blindly. I lived and breathed the code. Its words were engraved onto my heart, onto my soul. My every act was in perfect concordance with the teachings of angels, with every example and great deed of the heroes of legend. I moved in a living saga; I was the perfect knight."

"Impossible."

"To live by the code alone is to be a blind man. Such a man may do quite well on familiar ground, where he knows how many steps are between the door and the wall, between the jug of water and the poisoned chalice. But put the blind man in a strange land and he is lost."

Abaddon blinked, his eyes watering. "They knew the code too- the enemies of my family. I followed the code letter for letter, like a puppet dancing to their commands. They laid traps for me, forced me into untenable positions."

He looked at Aelfric with a sudden expression of anguish.

"I did everything right, just like you're doing, and it all lead to sorrow. It broke me- they broke me and I listened to the voices in the night. That is the road that lead me to this place. I never broke the code until I had nothing left but the code!"

"What do you want, fallen one?" asked Aelfric. "Absolution?"

"Yes." said Abaddon.

Outside, in the courtyard, the necromancers hissed all at once. The ogres looked up in confusion, feeling as though a cloud had passed in the clear sky. One cleric fell back, her eyes buring with green flame as her dark commune carried the mounting anger of the lords of hell. A fiendish crow took to the sky in sudden panic.

"I cannot forgive one such as you, Sir Abaddon. If that is why you let me live, it shall avail you not."

"No," said the blackguard in a rush of sudden revelation, "I let you live so you could fulfill an oath."

[aivanther]

If you bill this as "playing out your background", a sort of prequel to the actual campaign, this could actually be really fun, with your players and you sculpting something interesting. If you are just running exalted and secretly trying to make them fall, this has disaster written all over it.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

The thing about throwing moral dilemmas out there to challenge your paladins against failing is, you can't be absurd.
If there is a consequence they can't logically have foreseen then it wouldn't have been their fault and you can't fault them.
If you want to put them in a moral dilemma, think of something actually tough:
Having just slain a lich you learn of his source of power, a curse upon the land that would trigger upon his death. Having just slain him you unleash a poison upon the land, the water is tainted, the crops won't grow, and the live stick is dying. There are two ways to subvert it: Kill the king's new born (the king is young and can have another), or slay 6 children.
Here's the major crux of the issue, slaying the king's son could potentially bring a war upon the land. But slaying the other six children will definitely put an atonement burden on you, and you will be cast from the town and killed on sight.
Which path do you take?
Both option have major draw backs and the paladins have to commit an act that is blatantly evil to save a greater number of people.
Killing the king's son could bring war upon the land, but that may just be a risk the king is (with a heavy heart) willing to take. After all, he can then enlist the paladins in the war.
Killing the six children will of course be the bigger body count, but the king doesn't lose an heir, you risk no war, and you are able to properly atone for the act that had to be taken.

The danger of them losing their paladin status? Role playing. Role playing is the major key here. They'll need to consider the options, discuss with the king and the people all the options, and the great part is, is they will have to become hated for the greater good. The best part about a paladin, is to be a paladin, you have to carry a heavy burden. Absurd things only confuse the players and can make them hate the DM. If they know the hook of the game is to keep their paladin status as long as possible, you don't want them to sit inside a monastery killing low level goblins, they're going to have to spend a lot of money, they're going to have to do a lot of things. And you'll want them to, but you don't want to punish them for simply doing what is necessary to survive in the game.

[Mr.Moron]

Which path do you take?
.

Neither. Resettling people would be a fairly easy task for a mid-to-high level party of the type fighting powerful liches. Move them off the land, and then go on a quest to find good-aligned mid/high level casters. Enlist their help to remove the curse. If it's especially powerful, plane-shift over to a higher plane and get celestial help. It might take an adventure or two, and proving your intentions but it's a reasonable course of action.

If the DM makes it impossible to move the people and goes "HAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH YOU GOTTA KILL Sum KiDz! CuZ iI say Loli! U Fall N MATTER WAT CUZ ITZ DA SUPER CURS DAT CENAT BE REMOVed By NO One LOLOlolol! U FallllLL!1"

Then you stop playing. Because that DM wants to be on a power trip, not create a game that's fun to play.

[13_CBS]

Abaddon, the Villain in the story sidebars of Quintessenial Paladin 2 (who sort of redeems himself at the end) has some interesting words to say on difficult choices:

Spoiler

Show

"Do you know why I fell, Sir Knight? Why I am... what was the catechism: 'marked with the seals of shame, vengeance, and anathema'?"

"The knowledge is irrelevant. I can sense your taint, Abaddon."

"I followed the code blindly. I lived and breathed the code. Its words were engraved onto my heart, onto my soul. My every act was in perfect concordance with the teachings of angels, with every example and great deed of the heroes of legend. I moved in a living saga; I was the perfect knight."

"Impossible."

"To live by the code alone is to be a blind man. Such a man may do quite well on familiar ground, where he knows how many steps are between the door and the wall, between the jug of water and the poisoned chalice. But put the blind man in a strange land and he is lost."

Abaddon blinked, his eyes watering. "They knew the code too- the enemies of my family. I followed the code letter for letter, like a puppet dancing to their commands. They laid traps for me, forced me into untenable positions."

He looked at Aelfric with a sudden expression of anguish.

"I did everything right, just like you're doing, and it all lead to sorrow. It broke me- they broke me and I listened to the voices in the night. That is the road that lead me to this place. I never broke the code until I had nothing left but the code!"

"What do you want, fallen one?" asked Aelfric. "Absolution?"

"Yes." said Abaddon.

Outside, in the courtyard, the necromancers hissed all at once. The ogres looked up in confusion, feeling as though a cloud had passed in the clear sky. One cleric fell back, her eyes buring with green flame as her dark commune carried the mounting anger of the lords of hell. A fiendish crow took to the sky in sudden panic.

"I cannot forgive one such as you, Sir Abaddon. If that is why you let me live, it shall avail you not."

"No," said the blackguard in a rush of sudden revelation, "I let you live so you could fulfill an oath."

And that's precisely a character I'd like to play

I really don't mind my characters having horrible endings: at the moment I'm playing in one where I pretty much know (from a metagaming perspective) that my character will go horribly, horribly insane. The DM told me flat out that this would happen.

When he said that to me, I merely grinned and welcomed the news with open arms.

Perhaps it's because I view my D&D characters more as characters in a story, but I don't particularly mind what happens to them as long as it's interesting. I'll get ticked, of course, if they get shafted for stupid reasons ("rocks fall you die lol") but as long as what happens is interesting, they could go mad and be tortured for all of eternity in hell for all I care.

[AstralFire]

The thing about throwing moral dilemmas out there to challenge your paladins against failing is, you can't be absurd.

Comedy game where falling is the intent of the game.

[Vaynor]

I could see this being fun if the paladins had all fallen before the game started and the point of the game was to redeem yourself. Might make an interesting plot.