Planescape Question

[Mongoose87]

I've read that in Sigil, gods do not interfere with things, either for lack of want or because of the Lady of Pain. Does this mean that, for a cleric to be granted spells here, they must be a cleric of a cause or ideal?

[Project_Mayhem]

I seem to remember clerical spells still work. I don't know why though - Maybe they can interfere through their mortal followers?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I've read that in Sigil, gods do not interfere with things, either for lack of want or because of the Lady of Pain. Does this mean that, for a cleric to be granted spells here, they must be a cleric of a cause or ideal?

The gods themselves cannot interfere--deities are physically barred from Sigil by the Lady of Pain. Their power isn't affected the same way, though, so while a cleric's power may be reduced while there, casting spells is still possible.

[Mongoose87]

The gods themselves cannot interfere--deities are physically barred from Sigil by the Lady of Pain. Their power isn't affected the same way, though, so while a cleric's power may be reduced while there, casting spells is still possible.

When you say reduced, what would that mean rules-wise?

[hamlet]

When you say reduced, what would that mean rules-wise?

According to the original 2e box set, priests themselves are not reduced in power except in obvious cases like the Gate spell or any spell that would directly call upon their deity or, potentially, a high level proxy. Temples and worshippers and demons devils and demodands are all permitted. Angels are possibly permitted, though they are not cannonically there, probably because the gods of good specifically abide by the letter of the law in order to preserve the fabric of the multi-verse.

It's merely that divine entities (powers) are not permitted into Sigil by its ruler, the Lady of Pain.

Why? Because the city is, quite literally, the center of EVERYTHING and, from it, any being of sufficient power could rule EVERYTHING.

It is also intimated that there's something more to the city than even that, though I can't remember which book that came out of.

[Haven]

According to the original 2e box set, priests themselves are not reduced in power except in obvious cases like the Gate spell or any spell that would directly call upon their deity or, potentially, a high level proxy.

Well, there was also the rule where, outside the Prime Material, clerics effectively lost a spellcasting level for each plane they were away from their deity's home. So since Sigil was on the Outlands, they were effectively one level down (unless they worshipped, say, Ptah, or an Inner Planar power, in which case they were more boned).

It was kind of a jerk rule, just like the one where weapons lost one plus per planar distance.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well, there was also the rule where, outside the Prime Material, clerics effectively lost a spellcasting level for each plane they were away from their deity's home. So since Sigil was on the Outlands, they were effectively one level down (unless they worshipped, say, Ptah, or an Inner Planar power, in which case they were more boned).

It was kind of a jerk rule, just like the one where weapons lost one plus per planar distance.

I can certainly see why those rules went away.

[AstralFire]

I think that's kind of cool, honestly. It would be a PITA to implement in a campaign with lots of plane hopping, but it could be pretty awesome in a campaign focused on a limited set of planes.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Well, there was also the rule where, outside the Prime Material, clerics effectively lost a spellcasting level for each plane they were away from their deity's home. So since Sigil was on the Outlands, they were effectively one level down (unless they worshipped, say, Ptah, or an Inner Planar power, in which case they were more boned).

It was kind of a jerk rule, just like the one where weapons lost one plus per planar distance.

That's the one I was referring to, yes. I probably should have been more specific that while priests would take penalties for being away from the Prime, there were no additional penalties from Sigil itself.

[SirKazum]

Regarding the original question, it's just the deities (or "powers" as they were known back then) themselves that were barred from entering Sigil, or acting directly in it (i.e. using their own powers). Clerics had no restriction. And, as for clerical spells, according to the Planewalker's Handbook, clerics functioned at 100% power in exactly three places: the Prime Material (or a crystal sphere where their deity has established a foothold, if you want to get into Spelljammer stuff), their deity's home plane, and Sigil. The latter being due to the "hub of the multiverse" nature of the city. I believe they actually made magic weapons function at full power in there as well. One can see how that would be a convenient exception for their "power is reduced away from home" rule.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

and Sigil. The latter being due to the "hub of the multiverse" nature of the city.

Really? I thought it was only the Prime and the deity's home plane. I guess it's been longer than I thought.

[bosssmiley]

Temples and worshippers and demons devils and demodands are all permitted. Angels are possibly permitted, though they are not canonically there, probably because the gods of good specifically abide by the letter of the law in order to preserve the fabric of the multi-verse.

Everything is permitted in Sigil except:

1. Gods and their proxies.
2. proselytising on anything above a personal level.

Ask a Sigilite about how the Broken Temple (the Athar HQ) got that way sometime.

Spoiler

Show

Aoskar, the god of doorways tried to take Sigil off the LoP. He died, all his followers died, and his temples fell. All in one night of screaming.

All the planar powers (Good, Evil, Lawful or Chaotic) use Sigil as neutral ground. So long as they abide by the "no divine powers, don't harm the Dabus, don't try to destroy or take over the city" rules they all seem to be tolerated.

[Yora]

You could have written "converting". I study Religion at University and even I had to look up what prosyletism meant again.

[hamlet]

Well, there was also the rule where, outside the Prime Material, clerics effectively lost a spellcasting level for each plane they were away from their deity's home. So since Sigil was on the Outlands, they were effectively one level down (unless they worshipped, say, Ptah, or an Inner Planar power, in which case they were more boned).

It was kind of a jerk rule, just like the one where weapons lost one plus per planar distance.

Actually, IIRC, since Sigil is effectively the center of everything and the gates in it lead, literally, everywhere, the negative levels don't apply while within the city of doors. The city is, in effect, adjacent to everything.

And it wasn't a jerk rule, really. It was perfectly rational if you understood the rational for it. Priests lost power based on how far from their deity they were at the time. Adjacent planes and concurrent planes indicated no power loss while moving further and further around the Great Wheel left you with more and more "signal degredation so to speak.

You could have written "converting". I study Religion at University and even I had to look up what prosyletism meant again.

"Prosyletism" is a hard word now? Boy, things are changing. That used to be basic vocabulary when I was in school.

[Haven]

Actually, IIRC, since Sigil is effectively the center of everything and the gates in it lead, literally, everywhere, the negative levels don't apply while within the city of doors. The city is, in effect, adjacent to everything.

And it wasn't a jerk rule, really. It was perfectly rational if you understood the rational for it. Priests lost power based on how far from their deity they were at the time. Adjacent planes and concurrent planes indicated no power loss while moving further and further around the Great Wheel left you with more and more "signal degredation so to speak.

Right, forgot Sigil was exempt.

And as I recall, the rationale was just a perfunctory hand wave about a pact between all the gods. Which even the most chaotic ones respected. Uh huh.

Mostly it was just a way to add fake difficulty, I think.

[SirKazum]

Sigil might not have been exempt in the original, box-set Planescape rules, I don't quite remember (might check it out when I get home tonight). Or rather, it might have worked just like the Outlands. But the PWHB changed several rules, mostly on the direction of making PCs stronger, and I definitely know that in the PWHB, clerics and magic weapons in Sigil were at full power, supposedly because Sigil's "portal hub" nature made it touch every plane.

And, come to think of it, those rules were weird in that they affected different classes very differently. Basically, if you were a cleric, you'd be screwed in plane-hopping campaigns, and min-maxing cleric players would definitely choose a deity from the Outlands if they knew they'd mostly stay in the Great Wheel (just -1 on all Outer Planes except the Outlands, where a lot of adventuring gets done anyway). Fighters and other combatants after a certain level weren't much better off, what with getting hosed on magic weapons. Wizards *supposedly* were just as screwed as clerics, because they needed spell keys and whatnot for their spells to work on different planes, but in practice most of the bigger restrictions applied equally to clerics, and working around the other restrictions (the ones exclusive to wizards) wasn't really that hard. And thieves didn't lose any of their abilities regardless of the plane they were in, although they were a kinda crappy class back then anyway. Meh, in my PS campaigns, I generally just ignored these rules, and nobody seemed to mind.

[LurkerInPlayground]

If I recall the Planescape: Torment PC game, it's that the Power of Belief makes things literally true. You have a number of competing schools of philosophy, with no patron gods, who have a strong set of beliefs and ethics of their own. Sigil is a kind of middle ground where these things tend to be the most fluid.

[hamlet]

Right, forgot Sigil was exempt.

And as I recall, the rationale was just a perfunctory hand wave about a pact between all the gods. Which even the most chaotic ones respected. Uh huh.

Mostly it was just a way to add fake difficulty, I think.

Perhaps originally it was a perfunctory hand wave, but it was a hand wave for a very specific purpose, to give 1st level adventurers a fighting chance at surviving longer than a literal snowball in hell.

And the pact isn't enforced "just because." It's enforced by the Lady of Pain who is, at least in my understanding of the text, the semi-sentient gestalt of the collective belief that Sigil is closed to the gods and a moderately safe haven compared to the outer planes. People believe that the city is safe and protected by her, thus it is true.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

And the pact isn't enforced "just because." It's enforced by the Lady of Pain who is, at least in my understanding of the text, the semi-sentient gestalt of the collective belief that Sigil is closed to the gods and a moderately safe haven compared to the outer planes. People believe that the city is safe and protected by her, thus it is true.

Theories alternate between that and the belief that Her Serenity is a ridiculously powerful being that somehow ended up trapped in Sigil and decided She'd protect it from the gods while she's there because they had something to do with it (I'm paraphrasing heavily, of course), hence why Sigil is sometimes called "the Cage."

[SirKazum]

The thing is, the PS developers went out of the way to keep the Lady of Pain mysterious, including not actually giving official word on anything about her other than the basics (she's immensely powerful, she controls several aspects of Sigil with her will, she keeps deities out, and a few other details). But her nature and origin are things they really made an effort to NOT pin down in any way. So any theories on who she is and why she has her powers and so on are just speculation. And I like it just fine like that

[hamlet]

Theories alternate between that and the belief that Her Serenity is a ridiculously powerful being that somehow ended up trapped in Sigil and decided She'd protect it from the gods while she's there because they had something to do with it (I'm paraphrasing heavily, of course), hence why Sigil is sometimes called "the Cage."

Or she's three leprachauns standing on each others' shoulders and wearing a big robe and mask.

Interpretations are infinite, but I happen to like mine. It fits thematically.

[Eldan]

That one has also been mentioned several times, actually. I think it was "Three squirrels, a ring of levitation, a cloak and a mask", though.

[hamlet]

That one has also been mentioned several times, actually. I think it was "Three squirrels, a ring of levitation, a cloak and a mask", though.

I've peaked under her dress. It ain't squirrels.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I've peaked under her dress. It ain't squirrels.

Lies. You still physically exist with your mind intact, so it couldn't have happened.

[Random832]

You still ... your mind intact

[citation needed]

[PairO'Dice Lost]

[citation needed]

...okay, this is hamlet we're talking about, but still. He was able to form coherent sentences, and Her Serenity wouldn't leave language centers intact when blowing his mind to tiny pieces.

[hamlet]

...okay, this is hamlet we're talking about, but still. He was able to form coherent sentences, and Her Serenity wouldn't leave language centers intact when blowing his mind to tiny pieces.

Nah. You just have to know how to talk to her.

Plus, it helps to be more than just a little insane to start with. Makes the psychotic break easier, and maybe just a little enjoyable in the end.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Nah. You just have to know how to talk to her.

That can't possible go well.

"Hey, babe, what're you doing outside of a temple? 'Cause you've got the body of a goddess and I want to worsh--OH GODS THE PAIN!"

[Doc Roc]

That can't possible go well.

"Hey, babe, what're you doing outside of a temple? 'Cause you've got the body of a goddess and I want to worsh--OH GODS THE PAIN!"

:: makes a circle in the air ::
You barmy blokes talking about Her straight up as though the wind don't carry the chant?! Her shadow is as sharp as the dreams of a baatezu, Her will as strong as all the plane's armies. Even Vecna could only challenge her for a moment. Some suggest that a part of Vecna never left, neither, so maybe you should think a blink or two, neh?

[Haven]

Perhaps originally it was a perfunctory hand wave, but it was a hand wave for a very specific purpose, to give 1st level adventurers a fighting chance at surviving longer than a literal snowball in hell.

And the pact isn't enforced "just because." It's enforced by the Lady of Pain who is, at least in my understanding of the text, the semi-sentient gestalt of the collective belief that Sigil is closed to the gods and a moderately safe haven compared to the outer planes. People believe that the city is safe and protected by her, thus it is true.

I was referring to the rule about clerics becoming weaker as they traveled, which is supposedly upheld by a pact between the gods; the Sigil exemption is the Lady of Pain's thing, which I don't think any of the gods like but can't really do anything about.

The idea about the Lady of Pain is an interesting theory...it's one of the more sensible explanations.