[3.5] Maximizing Will saves

[DragoonWraith]

Hi,

Currently my character is level 7, good Will saves, has 18 Wisdom, and Iron Will (+5+4+2=+11), and needs to make DC 17 saves with regularity. Some chance of failure is fine (good for balance and coolness), but 25% of the time or more (which is what I'm looking at) is very bad. With a +2 Wis race and a starting Wisdom of 18 instead of 17, I could have 21 Wisdom for +5 instead of +4, but I'd like to avoid that (for now). Multiclassing is not an option. So, what else could I do? Feats, items, spells, that kind of thing.

Thanks!

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Race, stats, and link to the homebrew?

[Thrawn183]

You could always get an item that boosts only will saves. It's less efficient then buying the standard cloak of resistance, but if you don't care about the other two saves, it is certainly an option.

[Yukitsu]

Unnatural will grants charisma to will (heroes of horror) and warped mind grants a will save bonus depending on aberancy. There's a crystal of mind shielding that you can get earlier than a +5 cloak of resistance fairly cheaply.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Alternate idea:

Steadfast Determination allows you to use your Con mod instead of your Wis mod to will saves. Great for melee classes.

If you're a caster, use a combination of your naturally high will saves, cloaks of resistance, and buffs such as Greater Heroism, Superior Resistance, and etc.

[Mr.Moron]

Conviction (Cleric 1): +2 (+1/6Caster Levels) Morale Bonus to Saves. Lasts 10 minutes/level. The mass version is level 3 and works on everyone. It's a pretty nice buff to have round even without special save needs.

Recitation (Cleric 4) +2 or +3 Luck Bonus to saves. Short Duration, but if your Cleric is the DMM type he can persist it.

You can use the resistance line of spells, or a cloak of resistance.

EDIT: They're normally level-1 only. But see if you can get a way for your character to develop some traits. Obviously, very subject to DM approval. It can net you another +2 at the cost of -1 to Reflex & Fortitude.

[Glimbur]

Get a Cloak or Vest of Resistance.

[Sinfire Titan]

Level 7? Turning Evil, devoting yourself to an Elder Evil, and taking Willing Deformity (Madness) gets you permanent immunity to Mind-Affecting spells and abilities, and a 1/day boost to a single Will save equal to 1/2 your Character Level. And a + to Intimidate.

Downsides? Evil-only, you can't shut off the immunity or allow beneficial Mind-Affecting abilities through, and you take a permanent -4 to Wis. Oh, and it is Supernatural in origin, so AMF effects negate the feat's benefits.

Edit: Shape Soulmeld or Cerulean Will works too. Not as effective, but the Crystal Helm Soulmeld's Crown Chakra Bind grants the same immunity to Mind-Affecting, and several other Soulmelds boost Will saves.

[DragoonWraith]

Race, stats, and link to the homebrew

Eh, I decided I'd rather keep the homebrewed class out of it. I'm just curious what options I have. Just say I had a level 7 character who wanted to make frequent DC 17 Will saves.

You could always get an item that boosts only will saves. It's less efficient then buying the standard cloak of resistance, but if you don't care about the other two saves, it is certainly an option.

Hmm, OK, good.

Unnatural will grants charisma to will (heroes of horror) and warped mind grants a will save bonus depending on aberancy. There's a crystal of mind shielding that you can get earlier than a +5 cloak of resistance fairly cheaply.

I actually already have Force of Personality and am using Charisma instead of Wisdom; I just wrote Wisdom to keep things simple. Feats look interesting, will look.

Alternate idea:

Steadfast Determination allows you to use your Con mod instead of your Wis mod to will saves. Great for melee classes.

If you're a caster, use a combination of your naturally high will saves, cloaks of resistance, and buffs such as Greater Heroism, Superior Resistance, and etc.

As I said, have Force of Personality, and yes, I have Good Will Saves.

Conviction (Cleric 1): +2 (+1/6Caster Levels) Morale Bonus to Saves. Lasts 10 minutes/level. The mass version is level 3 and works on everyone. It's a pretty nice buff to have round even without special save needs.

Recitation (Cleric 4) +2 or +3 Luck Bonus to saves. Short Duration, but if your Cleric is the DMM type he can persist it.

You can use the resistance line of spells, or a cloak of resistance.

EDIT: They're normally level-1 only. But see if you can get a way for your character to develop some traits. Obviously, very subject to DM approval. It can net you another +2 at the cost of -1 to Reflex & Fortitude.

Traits are out, unfortunately. Spells, I can look into - got a bunch of UMD, so using Wands is reasonable enough, though buying the Level 4 Wand isn't going to happen.

Get a Cloak or Vest of Resistance.

D'oh. This is what happens when all my experience in character building is at level 1-4, and I suddenly make a level 7 - I forget the obvious.

Level 7? Turning Evil, devoting yourself to an Elder Evil, and taking Willing Deformity (Madness) gets you permanent immunity to Mind-Affecting spells and abilities, and a 1/day boost to a single Will save equal to 1/2 your Character Level. And a + to Intimidate.

Downsides? Evil-only, you can't shut off the immunity or allow beneficial Mind-Affecting abilities through, and you take a permanent -4 to Wis. Oh, and it is Supernatural in origin, so AMF effects negate the feat's benefits.

In this particular case, turning evil would negate the need to make the saves...

Edit: Shape Soulmeld or Cerulean Will works too. Not as effective, but the Crystal Helm Soulmeld's Crown Chakra Bind grants the same immunity to Mind-Affecting, and several other Soulmelds boost Will saves.

Will look into these.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Force of Personality only guards against mind affecting will saves.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Eh, I decided I'd rather keep the homebrewed class out of it. I'm just curious what options I have. Just say I had a level 7 character who wanted to make frequent DC 17 Will saves.

Vs what? If mind-affecting, bonuses and outright immunity are easier to come by. Is it spell-like? Dwarf would be nice then. Unconciouness? Play undead. I don't really care about the class, I want to know what you're saving against.

Also, Race/Stats? Adding Con to will saves is much less useful if your Con is 9.

[DragoonWraith]

Not Mind Affecting, just straight up Will save. I guess it's supernatural (small s intentional), but it's got immunities to being eliminated or gotten around - I have to just make the save.

Currently Human, could change that.

Force of Personality only guards against mind affecting will saves.

D'oh! Good call, that's no good. Thanks.

[Keld Denar]

Hmmmm, I'd put money on him warding off the alignment shift due to Lycanthropy as the motive behind this...Just my guess from what he's stated.

The MIC has a line of armor enhancements that grant +1, +3, and +5 to one of the 3 saves respectively for a relatively cheap static cost upgrate (its not a +equivalent). I'd suggest this foremost. Failing that, a Cloak or Vest of Resistance as mentioned above is always a good buy. You are gonna need it at some point, might as well be sooner than later.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I think ultimately what character you are will determine what we can recommend.

[Gorgondantess]

Ahhh, so you're playing a harrowed. Cool class, though has the potential to be kindof bad if not done right. Aren't there some feats in the second post that give you bonuses to the will save?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A one-level dip in Warlock to grab Dark One's Own Luck invocation gives you your Charisma bonus to your Will save... again. Plus a 1d6 ranged touch attack.

Two level dip in Paladin (if you are LG) does likewise, and stacks. Dip in Crusader is more alignment friendly, and also increases Will saves with Charisma, but specifically does not stack with Paladin's ability. It will, however, stack with the Warlock's invocation.

A feat going to Martial Maneuver for a maneuver which will let you use a Concentration check in place of a Will save, or dip a level of Warblade or Swordsage to grab it.

[RTGoodman]

Two level dip in Paladin (if you are LG) does likewise, and stacks. Dip in Crusader is more alignment friendly, and also increases Will saves with Charisma, but specifically does not stack with Paladin's ability. It will, however, stack with the Warlock's invocation.

Crusader's probably best, but if you want Paladin specifically instead, there're always the alignment variations of the class for CG, LE, and CE Paladins.

[DragoonWraith]

The MIC has a line of armor enhancements that grant +1, +3, and +5 to one of the 3 saves respectively for a relatively cheap static cost upgrate (its not a +equivalent). I'd suggest this foremost. Failing that, a Cloak or Vest of Resistance as mentioned above is always a good buy. You are gonna need it at some point, might as well be sooner than later.

Disappointingly, it has these for Reflex and Fort, but not Will, as far as I can tell. Why, I have no idea.

Ahhh, so you're playing a harrowed. Cool class, though has the potential to be kindof bad if not done right. Aren't there some feats in the second post that give you bonuses to the will save?

OK, so Gorgondantess go it. The class's special abilities involve a risk of the monster possessing the character taking over, at DC 10+level the ability is gotten at. But it's primary attack is +1d6/2lv a la Sneak Attack, so that's pretty regular DC 10+level (or 9+level on even levels) Will saves.

A one-level dip in Warlock to grab Dark One's Own Luck invocation gives you your Charisma bonus to your Will save... again. Plus a 1d6 ranged touch attack.

Hmm... Loathe to give up class progression, but that's tempting.

Two level dip in Paladin (if you are LG) does likewise, and stacks. Dip in Crusader is more alignment friendly, and also increases Will saves with Charisma, but specifically does not stack with Paladin's ability. It will, however, stack with the Warlock's invocation.

A feat going to Martial Maneuver for a maneuver which will let you use a Concentration check in place of a Will save, or dip a level of Warblade or Swordsage to grab it.

Crusader's probably best, but if you want Paladin specifically instead, there're always the alignment variations of the class for CG, LE, and CE Paladins.

Yeah, I think I'd do the Martial Maneuver if any of these. Will look into the Maneuvers.

Whoo, sooo much of this game I hadn't even touched.

EDIT: OK, so I have +15 Will, against a DC 17 save. That works perfectly to me. I could actually get quite a bit higher (higher Wis wouldn't be too hard, plus I could always ask the DM for that +1 or +3 Will save armor enhancement in line with the Ref and Fort ones), but I like the 5% chance of failure; that's reasonable and it adds to the character to have some risk. It was the 30% chance that I didn't like.

[Person_Man]

The Tome of Battle maneuver you're looking for is Moment of Perfect Mind Diamond Mind 1, which lets you replace a Will Save with a Concentration check. But as a maneuver, it takes an Immediate Action, and can only be used once per encounter (until recovered). So it may not work well for a Harrowed build.

But with UMD on your class list, it should be easy to make. Just track down a couple of buffs and you'll be fine.

[Oslecamo]

Oh, and it is Supernatural in origin, so AMF effects negate the feat's benefits.

Eeerrr, if you're inside an AMF, you really don't need to worry very much about your will save, because as far as I remember most things that would call for a will save are supernatural or magic.

[DragoonWraith]

Yeah, I just double-checked: It's a (Su) ability, and an (Su) save.

[Raewyn]

EDIT: OK, so I have +15 Will, against a DC 17 save. That works perfectly to me. I could actually get quite a bit higher (higher Wis wouldn't be too hard, plus I could always ask the DM for that +1 or +3 Will save armor enhancement in line with the Ref and Fort ones), but I like the 5% chance of failure; that's reasonable and it adds to the character to have some risk. It was the 30% chance that I didn't like.

Bear in mind that you auto-fail any save on a 1 (unless your DM plays with house rules), so there will always be a 5% chance of failure.

[Curmudgeon]

The Clerical Pride domain lets you reroll any 1 on a save, once per save. Once you get your modifier up high enough you'll only be failing on 1s, and this is a good answer.

[Spiryt]

This

Although it's really good only if you have 2 other feats from this family.

[Raewyn]

If you have enough free space in your feat progression, there are always Luck feats (Complete Scoundrel). Survivor's Luck lets you reroll a save and Dumb Luck lets you treat a natural 1 on a save as a natural 20. Granted you need to have a luck feat or two to qualify for these, but if you have feats to spare, it could be worth it.

[DragoonWraith]

Bear in mind that you auto-fail any save on a 1 (unless your DM plays with house rules), so there will always be a 5% chance of failure.

D'oh, of course. OK, so pumping it's cool then. Hmm...

[Darrin]

Hi,
So, what else could I do? Feats, items, spells, that kind of thing.

Consider Cumbrous Will (from Savage Species). +6 to Will saves, but it makes you shaken afterwards if you use it.

Eliminate the shaken problem by making yourself immune to fear effects. This can be done via Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment to pick up the Dream domain power. There's also a couple regional feats in PGtF that make you immune to shaken.

[quick_comment]

Its too high level for you now, but mind blank removes much of the need to make will saves.

[Keld Denar]

The Clerical Pride domain lets you reroll any 1 on a save, once per save. Once you get your modifier up high enough you'll only be failing on 1s, and this is a good answer.

And you can pick up a domain's special ability with the feat Planar Touchstone in the Planar Handbook. Dial it into the Catalogues of Enlightenment and pick the domain ability of your choice. Getting Pride drops you chance of autofailing on a 1 from 1 in 20 to 1 in 400, which are pretty good odds. Requires some ranks in Knowledge Planes, which is seldom a bad investment. Keeps you from dipping into cleric just for the domains.