Nonlethal fighter?

[Heliomance]

Is making a character that specialises in non-lethal damage viable? How early, and how would you build it? Is it viable without using the Justiciar class, or similar? Would you have to use sneak attack to get your damage up, or is Power Attacking with a sap, and later a merciful weapon, viable?

Thinking about making an ex-city guard turned Paladin who prefers not to kill whenever possible and will instead simply incapacitate opponents whenever doing so is practicable, and I was wondering if I could do this without hopelessly nerfing myself.

Incidentally, non-ToB suggestions are more useful, as none of the DMs around here allow ToB. Non-core stuff should be sparing, but is generally allowed on a case-by-case basis if it's not too broken.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Start with a couple levels of Monk. Their unarmed attacks may do subdual damage or lethal damage, and the damage output isn't bad if done right. Pick up a Monk's Belt and maybe Improved Natural Attack and you'll be dishing out roughly the same damage as a Greatsword.

It would also net you Wis bonus to AC (while unarmored), Evasion, and +3 to all saves, making it a worthwhile dip.

[Malfunctioned]

Complete Warrior has a class called the justicar, their class abilities focus on tracking down enemies, fighting using nonlethal damage (They even end up with +4d6 nonlethal damage to any hit) and beating people to unconciousness with a pair of handcuffs. It can be entered by a fighter at level six at the lowest. Is that anything you're looking for?

[TSED]

Complete Warrior has a class called the justicar, their class abilities focus on tracking down enemies, fighting using nonlethal damage (They even end up with +4d6 nonlethal damage to any hit) and beating people to unconciousness with a pair of handcuffs. It can be entered by a fighter at level six at the lowest. Is that anything you're looking for?

Is it viable without using the Justiciar class, or similar?

...


Anyways, there's a feat in (I believe) Complete Arcane that lets you substitute damage for non-lethal damage. I doubt you want to play a caster, but that's an option to maybe spur your creativity.

[Haven]

Just grab magic weapons with the Merciful ability. It makes the weapon's damage nonlethal and gives you an extra 1d6 damage to boot.

Totally core, totally easy.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Just grab magic weapons with the Merciful ability. It makes the weapon's damage nonlethal and gives you an extra 1d6 damage to boot.

Totally core, totally easy.

Totally expensive for a starting character...

[Malfunctioned]

Well that'll teach me to read the OP better in the future .

[Kaiyanwang]

Maybe I'm wrong, but in Book of the Exalted Deeds there are nonlethal damage weapons.

[Gaiyamato]

Buy a sap!

lol.

[Omegonthesane]

Buy a sap!

lol.

Hey, it's fit for purpose until you get a +1 merciful greatsword.
Or a +0 merciful greatsword - I really, really don't see why a weapon should have to have an enhancement bonus to have any special qualities.

The Book of Exalted Deeds has the fighter bonus feat "Subduing Strike" which lets you convert lethal to nonlethal at no penalty and even lets a rogue make nonlethal sneak attacks with lethal weapons. However, BoED is waaaaay out of core, so you might want to find a more recent source for that feat. *goes to check Complete Arcane*

[TSED]

Err, that feat I mentioned was metamagic. I can't believe I forgot to mention 'spells' in that post.

[Omegonthesane]

Are you explicitly going for a 2-hander build or a sword-and-board? Because to me it's looking like your best bet is TWFing with saps until you can get merciful weapons.

[Tengu_temp]

The Book of Exalted Deeds has the fighter bonus feat "Subduing Strike" which lets you convert lethal to nonlethal at no penalty and even lets a rogue make nonlethal sneak attacks with lethal weapons. However, BoED is waaaaay out of core, so you might want to find a more recent source for that feat. *goes to check Complete Arcane*

This feat isn't broken at all, so there should be no problem in allowing it on a case by case basis. It isn't even an Exalted feat, which is good - that means everyone can take it. Here it is.

As for Nonlethal Substitution... it sucks. Not only does it work with only one energy type, it also makes the spell take a slot 1 level higher! You're better off using one of the many crowd control spells.

[Captain Alien]

Also, a beguiler can use a lot of nonlethal spells that deal a good amount of damage.

Monk is the best class for dealing nonlethal damage, but if you want something better, you can be a rogue and use a sap. And then justiciar, or whatever.

[Thurbane]

Maybe I'm wrong, but in Book of the Exalted Deeds there are nonlethal damage weapons.

Indeed - the truncheon, entangling pole, grasping pole and lasso.

[Omegonthesane]

Indeed - the truncheon, entangling pole, grasping pole and lasso.

The latter three are all Exotic, which kinda sucks, but the truncheon is martial and does 1d8 damage - just like a battle axe, only not killing people. And bludgeoning.

Still, if your DM is cruel and won't let you take Subduing Strike or wield a Truncheon or grant you a merciful magic weapon when you become level appropriate, your best bet is to TWF with saps.

[herrhauptmann]

or is Power Attacking with a sap, and later a merciful weapon, viable?

If a sap is a light weapon, I don't think you can power attack with it.

If you don't mind using some exalted feats, what about sacred vow, vow of peace(non violence?)

[Epinephrine]

The unarmed option may be best for now, if you want to stick to core or mostly core. If monk is too odd, just grab Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple. A strong full BAB character could still do ok this way, until you hit a level that would allow you to grab merciful weapons etc.

[arkol]

Are there any ways to boost non-lethal damages that work only for non-lethal? I mean sure you can power attack with a sap or mercifull weapon, but you can power attack with a greataxe too so it's not non-lethal specific advice. Same thing goes to the mercifull quality. Sure it adds +1d6 damage for a +1 bonus, but you can do that with fire and cold and etc...

[woodenbandman]

Earth's Embrace? Grapple the opponent for like 3 rounds and they're out of it.

EDIT: just in general.

[JeminiZero]

Let me suggest something completely different.

Play a Wizard. Specialize in save or lose spells. You will have a much easier time subduing your enemy when he is asleep, paralyzed with hold person, or in a coma after you reduced his Int to zero with Ray of stupidity. Heck sometimes, you don't even have to fight him, just charm/dominate him and convince him to turn himself in.

[AstralFire]

Hey, it's fit for purpose until you get a +1 merciful greatsword.
Or a +0 merciful greatsword - I really, really don't see why a weapon should have to have an enhancement bonus to have any special qualities.

The +1 requirement mostly is:
- Not to prevent people from grabbing most of the +1 equivalents early, but from more cheaply being a Golf Club Bag Fighter with the more expensive ones (+0 Ghost Touch, +0 Brilliant Energy, +0 Metallic...)
- A minor limiting factor on Greater Magic Weapon + pre-enchanted weapon abuse.

Sticking to core, there's not really a better option than Merciful. I would look into that Paladin/Rogue multiclass PrC though, from CAdv, and use a sap.

[NEO|Phyte]

The +1 requirement mostly is:
- Not to prevent people from grabbing most of the +1 equivalents early, but from more cheaply being a Golf Club Bag Fighter with the more expensive ones (+0 Ghost Touch, +0 Brilliant Energy, +0 Metallic...)
- A minor limiting factor on Greater Magic Weapon + pre-enchanted weapon abuse.

You forgot
- To prevent people from grabbing a sword that casts Dancing Lights 3/day and using it to bypass DR/magic.

[AstralFire]

Pft, no one cares about that. Being good in bed makes your sneezes bypass DR/Magic.

[Frosty]

I'd daresay that most Fighters are *already* quite non-lethal to monsters that an adventuring party faces

[Telonius]

I believe the "Whelm" and "Overwhelm" spells deal nonlethal.

[Heliomance]

Wizard is a completely different concept to what I want to play; as stated I want it to be mostly Paladin. Justiciar looks like possibly the best bet. Truncheon should be allowed, and is perfectly in-character for an ex-watchman. Alternatively, some sort of grapple build might work, but is useless against very big opponents.

Most of what I'm asking is really, how to either bypass the -4 attack penalty for doing non-lethal damage or output meaningful damage using one of the non-lethal only weapons.

[AstralFire]

There's really no good reason for a Truncheon not to be allowed; if a DM is reluctant, I'd remind that it's completely useless against undead or anything else immune to nonlethal, and that it already is inferior to the Longsword (smaller crit range).

[9mm]

if your allowed access to OA, pick up the choke hold feat for chances to knock a pinned baddy unconscious for 1d4 rounds. Also unarmed strike can be either lethal or not, without penalty.