4e- Making the Ruthless Ruffian better.

[Asbestos]

I was thinking of allowing the feature to grant Proficiency with Greatclubs and Morningstars in addition to what it already grants (basically the whole simple 'mace' weapons group) and allowing SA to be used with any 'mace' weapon in which you are proficient. I see no way this could unbalance things. Thoughts?

[Mando Knight]

It sounds fine to me. Maces and clubs are inferior weapon groups anyway (hammers almost completely take the place of maces and clubs in Military and Superior weapon tiers...), and they don't stand up to the Double Sword or Rapier in terms of damage output anyway. It should be fine.

[RTGoodman]

When Martial Power came out, I thought it DID apply to all Maces and Clubs. I don't think it's particularly overpowered.

[Asbestos]

It sounds fine to me. Maces and clubs are inferior weapon groups anyway (hammers almost completely take the place of maces and clubs in Military and Superior weapon tiers...), and they don't stand up to the Double Sword or Rapier in terms of damage output anyway. It should be fine.

This is very true and one has to wonder why exactly certain rogue feats exist as written. For example:
Longsword Finesse:
Prerequisite: Eladrin, rogue
Benefit: You can wield a longsword to deal Sneak Attack damage and to use rogue powers that require a light blade (you still cannot throw the longsword). You reduce Sneak Attack damage by one die when using a longsword.

and...

Tunnel Stalker:
Prerequisite: Str 13, Con 13, dwarf, rogue
Benefit: You can use any rogue power that requires a light blade while wielding an axe, a hammer, or a pick with one hand. You reduce Sneak Attack damage by one die when wielding one of these other weapons.


Now, for the first feat its far better to take Weapon Prof: Rapier, sure it can be used as a versatile weapon... but you do full SA damage with it!

In the second at least you could snag a Crag Hammer or a Waraxe to do more damage when you don't have SA, but again, a rogue that is gaining CA and using a Rapier is going to be doing more damage.

Its almost as the designers want to allow you to use alternate rogue weapons... but to always have daggers and rapiers as the best ones (and Doubleswords for whatever reason...)

[its_all_ogre]

the eladrin is probably going to have the soldier feat too for +2 damage

so d8+2+SA (d6/d8)+dex+(str maybe?)

dwarf is better though war axe d12+2 +d6/d8 SA +dex+str maybe
vs
d4+2d6/2d8+dex

also all those high level powers with high [w] will hit harder with war axe. or craghammer d10 brutal 2
and criticals.
although the eladrin with a rapier will be better overall as you say and only spending one feat.

[Sir Homeslice]

The MAD needs to be rectified. Either Cha or Str, not both. Also, yes, their weapon selection needs to encompass more weapons aside from those two simple ones.

Longsword Finesse and Tunnel Stalker need to both have their SA die penalties removed.

[Asbestos]

The MAD needs to be rectified. Either Cha or Str, not both. Also, yes, their weapon selection needs to encompass more weapons aside from those two simple ones.

Most RR builds I've seen just mostly ignore the Cha and focus on Str... which is an issue with the build, when half of it is just straight up ignored. I can see why the MAD exists (Strength, because you specialize in beating people over the head with a club, Cha because you're supposed to be more intimidating than normal) but I also suspect that they did it because they overvalued the effect of 'Rattling' and hamstrung the build from day one. However, I may just be a little paranoid there.

[Mando Knight]

And Double Sword should no longer count as a Light Blade...

It's strictly better than the Rapier for all purposes except the fact that you can use an off-hand throwing weapon with the Rapier. After all, it counts as an off-hand weapon (for Tempest Technique), a Heavy Blade (for Heavy Blade Opportunity and Vorpal), a Defensive weapon (for +1 AC), and a Light Blade (for Sneak Attack and any Light Blade enchantments). And it has d8 damage dice and +3 proficiency.

[ocato]

Tunnel Stalker could've would've had potential except "with one hand." I'd gladly forgo a die of sneak attack to be an angry power attacking sneak attacking Mordenkrad wielding psycho.

PRECISE INCISION SMASH!