A Tier for Every Class

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm pretty sure there's some the list missed, even excluding homebrew. Put your favorite homebrew and any non-homebrew the list missed onto the tier list!

Original tier list:

Spoiler

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Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Examples: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the rest of the party is weak in that situation and the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

Examples: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

Examples: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner

From here.

Yours:

Spoiler

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1-Surrealistik's remade Sorceror (post 56)
2-Ardent?, Bio-Mage (post 81)?, Shaman (OA), Spirit Shaman, Tempest Fennac's Adept (post 4), Wilder?, Wu Jen
3-Ardent?, Bio-Mage (extended campaign, post 81)?, Dragonfire Adept, Dragon Shaman?, ghost_warlock's Primal Savant (sig), ghost_warlock's Shadowmage (sig), lesser_minion's remade Soulknife (post 28), OW4's remade Paladin (post 27)?, PId6's remade Soulknife (post 28), Wilder?
4-Dragon Shaman?, ghost_warlock's Brigand (sig), Incarnate, Kensai?, Lurk?, OW4's remade Paladin (post 27)?, Shujena, Totemist, Wilder?
5-Kensai?, Lurk?, Rokugan Courtier, Sohei, Soulborn
6-None yet

Don't forget prestige classes!

[Eloel]

Dragonfire Adept
Tier 2 - Allowing Meta-breath feats (Twisted RAW)
Tier 4 - Not-allowing Meta-Breath (RAI)

[Indon]

Totemist, Incarnate - Tier 4
Soulborn - Tier 5

[Tempest Fennac]

I'm not sure where the PC version of the Adept class I made would go; http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...12#post5284212 (I'd guess at Tier 2).

[Sinfire Titan]

Dragonfire Adept
Tier 2 - Allowing Meta-breath feats (Twisted RAW)
Tier 4 - Not-allowing Meta-Breath (RAI)

Wrong. Tier 2 means: Capable of doing everything a Tier 1 character is capable of, but in slightly more limited portions. DFA with Metabreath Feats is no higher than mid-Tier 3.


Want to know why? Because they can't use a class feature to produce an entire plane of existence. Anything the DFA can do, the Sorcerer/Wilder/Psion can do more efficiently. The only advantage the DFA has is endurance.

Totemist, Incarnate - Tier 4
Soulborn - Tier 5

The Soulborn is not stronger than a Soulknife...

[Indon]

The Soulborn is not stronger than a Soulknife...

Soulknife is also tier 5, what are you talking about?

[GreatWyrmGold]

The Soulborn is not stronger than a Soulknife...

Soulknifes aren't tier 6, are they? I mean, FREE +10 effective enhancement bonus or so weapons by level 20, changing free? It's not on the same tier as commoners. It's AT LEAsT as powerful as a monk, probably more since its weapons are enhanced for free, etc.
Edit: Ninja'd.

[Indon]

I've not played with the class, but from what I know of it, I'd put Kensai at tier 4. Thoughts?

Edit: Maybe tier 5, tier 4 when combined exploitatively with Monk unarmed strike...

[Blackfang108]

Soulknifes aren't tier 6, are they? I mean, FREE +10 effective enhancement bonus or so weapons by level 20, changing free? It's not on the same tier as commoners. It's AT LEAsT as powerful as a monk, probably more since its weapons are enhanced for free, etc.
Edit: Ninja'd.

Monk, however, gets better DR overcoming options. (Lawful, adamantine)
Soulknife is stuck at Magic. It's better than nothing. (And a Keen soulbreaker Mind Blade can be useful.)

[Draz74]

Dragonfire Adept
Tier 2 - Allowing Meta-breath feats (Twisted RAW)
Tier 4 - Not-allowing Meta-Breath (RAI)

Even without Metabreath, DFA is Tier 3. At least if some of his other standard tricks are allowed (e.g. Entangling Exhalation, which is technically not Metabreath).

Without Entangling Exhalation, yeah, he might drop to Tier 4. But with it ... I'd say he's a strong T3 with Metabreath, and a weak T3 without Metabreath.

[Doc Roc]

Soulknife is tier six.

Name three classes that would make you want to play a soulknife. Go on, try. All I got is complete warrior samurai.

[AstralFire]

Care to explain that a little more, Tide? I mean, Soulknives are clearly near the bottom, but I always figured the ability to do mental ability damage made them keep pace with the monk.

[Augmented Lurk]

Ardent: Tier 2 or 3
Wu Jen: Tier 2
Spirit Shaman: Tier 2
Wilder: Tier 3 or 4
Shugenja: Tier 4
OA Shaman: Tier 2
Sohei: Tier 5
Lurk: Tier 4 or 5

[Doc Roc]

Their DCs are miserable thanks to their soul-crushingly bad MAD. And there are no feats to fix that. I personally consider the core monk to be Tier five or so, but I am NOT getting into that debate.

Soulknives basically got borked three ways:

Bad initial class design.
Lack of serious support or augmentation. There's one PrC for soulknife.
No ability to itemize efficiently.

Now, if you allow soul-bow, and look at soulknife as a vestigial stage leading into soulbow, that's a hell of a lot better. In that case, yes, I can name three classes that make me want to dip soulknife to get into its cool and fancy PrC.


Ardents, well built by those with strong kung-fu, can perform in the Tier 1 range, in my opinion. I've seen PhaedrusXY do things that broke me.

[AstralFire]

Oh. Saves would do it. For some reason I remembered it as straight ability damage, no save.

[Doc Roc]

Let me go check. Fun Fun Fun.

No save, but it eats his move action and it's a 13th level ability.

Oh yeah and:
"Creatures immune to mind-affecting effects are immune to psychic strike damage. "

Since Knife to the Soul runs off available damage dice from psychic strike...............

[Blackfang108]

Lack of serious support or augmentation. There's one PrC for soulknife.

Two.

Illumine Soul is the PrC Right before Soulbow.

Beginning at 13th level, when a soulknife executes a psychic strike, he can choose to substitute Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma damage (his choice) for extra dice of damage. For each die of extra damage he gives up, he deals 1 point of damage to the ability score he chooses. A soulknife can combine extra dice of damage and ability damage in any combination.

The soulknife decides which ability score his psychic strike damages and the division of ability damage and extra dice of damage when he imbues his mind blade with the psychic strike energy.

Looks like it's straight ability damage to me.

[Doc Roc]

Is it any good? If so, book\page please?

Yeah, just corrected myself. It doesn't work on enemies immune to mind-affecting abilities which makes it completely worthless at 13th.

[AstralFire]

Oof. I remembered the move action bit, but not the mind-affecting bit.

Soulknife makes me weep for what it could have been.

[9mm]

Dragonfire Adept
Tier 2 - Allowing Meta-breath feats (Twisted RAW)
Tier 4 - Not-allowing Meta-Breath (RAI)

... there are meta-breath feats that don't require a cool down?

Oof. I remembered the move action bit, but not the mind-affecting bit.

Soulknife makes me weep for what it could have been.

To this day I think throw multiple mind blade was supposed to be a palm throw on crack, but something went wrong during editing/printing and wizards decided to not do anything to fix it. Otherwise, wouldn't they have put in "as a standard action" under the basic "throw mind blade"?

[Doc Roc]

Oof. I remembered the move action bit, but not the mind-affecting bit.

Soulknife makes me weep for what it could have been.

You mean a crappy version of ToB? Soulknife boils down to WotC trying to tell melee classes that Jimmy's gonna be okay, Jimmy's gonna come home. Meanwhile, Jimmy's boiling inside with pestilence and the prodigal brood of a thousand distant stars.

[AstralFire]

You mean a crappy version of ToB? Soulknife boils down to WotC trying to tell melee classes that Jimmy's gonna be okay, Jimmy's gonna come home. Meanwhile, Jimmy's boiling inside with pestilence and the prodigal brood of a thousand distant stars.

Sort of. I really liked the class' flavor, and I mean beyond it being an obvious chance to pretend you're a Jedi. The idea of directly cutting into someone's soul has interested me since I first heard about Astral Cords. To me, the Soulknife should have been the defining class of the Expanded Psionics Handbook; the Psion and Wilder can easily be stumbled upon mid-session and look no different from a Sorcerer when just listening to the roleplay for their abilities. The 'innate power to bend reality' archclass is present in most of the magic systems for D&D. "I am taking a blade to your SOUL" is not so much.

[Blackfang108]

Is it any good? If so, book\page please?

Yeah, just corrected myself. It doesn't work on enemies immune to mind-affecting abilities which makes it completely worthless at 13th.

I repeat: right before Soulbow.

So of course, Illumine Soul is in Races of the Dragon.

Complete Psionic.

It's a 5 level class.
Full Mind Blade and MBE progression. (I think you actually gain an additional PS die overall. Haven't run the numbers.)
You get the most use out of it if about half or more encounters are v undead. (your Mindblade(s) are automatically Undead Bane in addition to your given allotment.)
Your psychic strike now works on undead(even mindless undead).
You get a "don't die" ability once(?) per day. (Healing when your HP goes below 0, if the healing puts you above -10 after all the damage, you're still breathing.)
A couple of ways to hit things with positive energy.

Don't have the book in front of me, FYI.

(To be fair, my DM dropped the "Mind Blank makes you useless" bit in the campaign where I play one.)

Also, Mind Cleave(I think) from CP lets you recharge your Psychic Strike when you drop something. there are a few other Soulknife Feats in there that are handy. (Minus the form feats. Screw those. If i'm doing TWF, I'm boosting DEX and using Weapon Finesse. Double weapons don't cut in in those cases.)

EDIT: wow. I'm all over the place here...

[Fishy]

What Soulknife Could Have Been.

By which I mean the Soulbound Weapon ACF for Psychic Warriors, not the 'lol bonus feats' ACF for soulknives.

[Doc Roc]

:: charges! ::

HUG CANNONS CHARGED!
BEAM-Spam!
::spams::

That is a beautiful fix.

[AstralFire]

Nah. That's a quick fix (and one I have used), but I would have gone with expanding and making more useful the concept of directly striking at one's spirit, much as the original PrC in 3.0 was focused upon.

[T.G. Oskar]

I'm wondering about Paladin reworks, fixes and remakes.

I've only tested OW4's reworking, and I'd say it lifts it to tier 4, perhaps tier 3 without much effort. Mostly tier 4 because of the auras (which work like the Marshal's auras), the improved spell list and capacity (grants Paladins some solid spellcasting by adding oddly missing spells such as Shield of Faith, Heal and Raise Dead), the Lay on Hands boosted to Dragon Shaman levels and furthermore increased by a recharge method, and the capstone ability which is pretty much Loyal Beyond Death or Immortal Fortitude on crack once per day. Oh, not to mention the specializations and bonus feats, which are much needed for a Paladin.

How would the rest of the reworks go (such as Fax's rework?)

[Gorgondantess]

Yeah, soulknife is a cool idea, but poorly excecuted...
However, there's two fixes on this very site (found here and here) that are quite good, IMHO, landing it solidly in tier 3.

[quick_comment]

Soulknife can be fixed in a bunch of different ways.

One really easy way is to give it full initiator levels, warblade number of maneuvers known and readied, access to diamond mind, stone dragon and devoted spirit (with holy/unholy stuff refluffed as psionic).

For their recovery mechanism I suggest either copying the warblade, or giving them their maneuvers back whenever they execute a psychic strike. Give them a few bonus feats (instant clarity, the feat that lets them imbue their mind blade as a swift action once per day, stuff like that)

Also bump them up to full BAB.

[Indon]

FYI, Greatwyrm, Totemist and Incarnate are two separate classes.