3.5 Dragonslaying!

[Elfin]

There's probably already a thread about this, but my search failed to locate it.
So, here's a thread to discuss the ultimate adventuring pastime, whether it takes the form of advice and helpful pointers, dragonslaying builds, or just recounting a victory you're especially proud of.

To kick it off:
I've joined my home campaign as a player while one of my friends tries his hands at DMing in my world. Right now, at the climax of his campaign, we're about to face off against an adult black dragon sorcerer who controls a tribe of ogres and a horde of undead. So I'm looking for advice on how to best take the dragon down- the party consists of a cleric of Pelor 11, a wizard (conjurer) 10, a ranger (archer) 11, and my character, a warblade 11.
Best course of action?

[Mr.Moron]

What other resource do have, what sources are you allowed to draw spells from?

How soon is "about to" what kind of timescale do you have?

Any allies?


etc.. etc...

[Elfin]

Books allowed are core, Completes, Unearthed Arcana, Spell Compendium, and ToB, just because that's what we have; I can probably talk my DM into letting us use other books.
About to- game is next Saturday, in-game the dragon is going to assault a large town in about 5-7 days.
Our allies are the few remaining townsfolk (most have fled), and an army of nearly 200 elves who we've helped before and are now marching to our aid.

[quick_comment]

Mass energy resistance, mass fly (or earthbind on the dragon), slow, mass haste. Buff the warblade. The cleric should use greater turning to ash the undead. The warblade should take the ogres. The dragon belongs to the wizard. If you can get one, its a bit pricy, but a scroll of forcecage will let you trap the dragon, and unless it can cast disintegrate, its stuck there, and the ranger can pelt it with arrows until it dies.

What maneuvers does the warblade know?

Oh, and dont bother with the peasents. They are basically just going to get in your way more than the dragons.

[Elfin]

Thanks for the help.
My Warblade's maneuvers: Elder Mountain Hammer, Moment of Perfect Mind, Iron Heart Surge, Pouncing Charge, Dancing Mongoose, White Raven Tactics, Iron Heart Endurance, Bounding Assault, War Leader's Charge.

[Eldariel]

Damage buffs for the Ranger if possible. Archery gets most attacks and gets them all the time, but deals negligible damage (compared to Dragon's HP) by default. E.g. Flame Arrow, Greater Magic Weapon, Sonic Weapon, whatever Str-buffs you can find (given an adjusting bow) and the Ranger's own spellcasting (Hunter's Mercy, Find the Gap [basically guarantees one hit per round; awesome with Quickened H's Mercy as it lasts rounds/level], etc. Quickened via Circlet of Rapid Casting if possible).

But yeah, the non-Ranger spells should be cast before combat; few low-level slots to make the Ranger from "small annoyance" into "threat" is very much worth it, but few low-level slots + associated actions is not.


Other than that, the Warblade obviously needs flight and preferably pretty fast one at that since the Dragon is quick. Some sort of short range teleportation effects such as Benign Transposition can also work, although THE BEST option is forcing the Dragon down (does the name "Downdraft" say anything to you?) and in general, hit its Touch AC and Reflex-save (Enervation, I'm looking at you! In general, troublesome Rays without saves + Assay Resistance are very key vs. Dragons), buff vs. its energy type and wipe it out.


Note that you probably want to make heavy use of White Raven Tactics on your Ranger if possible (or Wizard if you feel you need the most firepower available) while charging in ASAP. Oh, and eat Heroes' Feast to avoid the pesky Frightful Presence.

Really, if you have the chance to come fully prepared (with more than just hour/level effects in place; Flame Arrow, Greater Magic Weapons, Magic Vestments, Heroes' Feast & co. should be cast anyways) you'll be able to defeat it handily but if you have to start the fight unprepared, it'll be tough.


I wouldn't bet on the mooks being too frightening, but the Cleric could wipe out the Undead with few choice spells if need be. The Ogres are probably secondary to the Dragon itself if they're faced together, but if you have to plow through them first quick, few Reflex/Will-save spells from the Cleric/Wizard (Glitterdust, Web, Cometfall, etc.) coupled with enough aggression should do it very fast.

[Woodsman]

Go after the dragon first; it is the most deadly. The ogres and undead are secondary.

It's line-shaped breath weapon will cause it to go after whoever it sees as the biggest threat, which isn't good for you. Cone-shape users wait until you're grouped together (The Shape Breath Metabreath feat from Draconomicon can allow the dragon to use a cone, though).

Honestly, look at Draconomicon for tactics. The spells mentioned in there are helpful as well.

[AslanCross]

Does the wizard have access to Wall of Force? He can drop that in the dragon's flight path. A Wall of Force should stop him; even if he does detect it via spellcraft he wouldn't be able to turn around in time. An adult black dragon will stall if it hits a Wall of Force and will crash. The crash is not likely to kill it, but you can still take the fight to it far more quickly.

Solid Fog will also stop him dead in the air, though it wouldn't be a fatal crash.

Just your luck if he has Wingover, though.

I doubt your DM will make you fight EVERYONE at the same time, but the Wizard should preserve his spells for the dragon fight; the warblade and ranger can take the ogres. Assay Spell Resistance will work wonders in this fight.

Fly will definitely help; you should be able to take the battle to the dragon or at least meet halfway. The big problem here is that the dragon will be faster than you even if you use haste; God forbid the dragon himself use haste. Don't waste your turns trying to chase the dragon, it's likely he's going to outrun you and he can separate you from your party members. Instead stay within spell range of your friends.

I see you have Pouncing Charge; remember that if you are flying, you can charge at double speed if you are diving. Try to get above the dragon; even an elevation advantage of 5 feet will enable you to make a downward divebomb at a shallow angle.

The peasants will not be much help; the dragon's frightful presence will send them scattering no matter what you do. Tell them to hole up in the largest defensible structure in the town, arm them with slings. They can at least fight the ogres.

Even if the elves are numerous and skilled, they can probably be more help against the ogres.

[quick_comment]

Even if the elves are numerous and skilled, they can probably be more help against the ogres.

If there are any elf wizards with save or lose spells prepared, they might as well cast them at the dragon. Taking 1 ogre out of a whole group isnt much, but the dragon will roll a nat 1 eventually.

If you can get some, give the elf archers dex damage poison. Its usually the lowest stat on a dragon, and again, it will roll 1s 5% of the time.

[Eldariel]

Does the wizard have access to Wall of Force? He can drop that in the dragon's flight path. A Wall of Force should stop him; even if he does detect it via spellcraft he wouldn't be able to turn around in time. An adult black dragon will stall if it hits a Wall of Force and will crash. The crash is not likely to kill it, but you can still take the fight to it far more quickly.

Solid Fog will also stop him dead in the air, though it wouldn't be a fatal crash.

Just your luck if he has Wingover, though.

I also wish to point out that even Wingover takes some time so you could, if timing it right (especially during Wingover), still drop the Dragon this way. Though if the DM has invested in Improved Flightx2, this will all be in naught.

I doubt your DM will make you fight EVERYONE at the same time, but the Wizard should preserve his spells for the dragon fight; the warblade and ranger can take the ogres. Assay Spell Resistance will work wonders in this fight.

Note though that low-level spells that will be unlike to affect the Dragon (such as Glitterdust or Grease, though few quickened Glitterdusts will have a chance to work wonders on the Dragon too; I'd still stick to Rays for that) can be burned here with little loss and still absolutely devastate the Ogres. Though you'll of course have to decide for yourself if it's needed. But if there's a gang of 10+ Ogres clumped nicely, a (Sculpted) Glitterdust would be great.

The peasants will not be much help; the dragon's frightful presence will send them scattering no matter what you do. Tell them to hole up in the largest defensible structure in the town, arm them with slings. They can at least fight the ogres.

Even if the elves are numerous and skilled, they can probably be more help against the ogres.

Here, remember that Heroes' Feast is 1 creature/level; you'll probably have more levels than Party Members so you can feast few additionals which gives them immunity to Fear. If you also extend the Mass Energy Resistance: Acid to them, there's a relatively good chance that the AoE and Frightful Presence won't cut them down giving them free hits on the Dragon.

Won't probably be relevant, but the option is there (and some of the Elves could be pretty tough [given how long they live]; choose the ones most likely to be of assistance and have the rest defend themselves against ogres as you see fit) and costs you nothing extra so might as well make use of it as appropriate.

Note that this means you might have to disrupt some of the Dragon's casting to prevent few AoE spells from killing off the randoms ('cause while tactically it might not matter, letting randoms die is never something heroes want), but overall should be relatively little trouble (if the Ranger has Hunter's Mercy & Find the Gap up, he can just ready his attack to "Dragon's first non-move action" and very likely get it and probably make it count vs. e.g. casting).

[Epinephrine]

Don't forget entangle as a status - halving movement by any means is good. Bracers of the entangling blast are a good example, causing a no-save entangle effect; combined with something to slow the dragon this can make it impossible to stay in the air. (Ray of Dizzyness, for a no save debuff, allowing a move or standard action only?)

[Fizban]

Fly will definitely help; you should be able to take the battle to the dragon or at least meet halfway. The big problem here is that the dragon will be faster than you even if you use haste; God forbid the dragon himself use haste. Don't waste your turns trying to chase the dragon, it's likely he's going to outrun you and he can separate you from your party members. Instead stay within spell range of your friends.

I see you have Pouncing Charge; remember that if you are flying, you can charge at double speed if you are diving. Try to get above the dragon; even an elevation advantage of 5 feet will enable you to make a downward divebomb at a shallow angle.

Don't forget to use a piercing weapon for double damage when you dive. In two hands, with power attack, and with a use magic device'd wand of wraithstrike. (MM details double damage for claw attacks, Races of the Wild and Dragon expand to any piercing attack).

I'd also recommend using something more than the 3rd level spell fly. Wings of the Dragon (Spell Compendium)is fourth level, lasts for 10 minutes/level, and give you a huge fly speed. Wings of Swift Flying (Races of the Dragon) increases the fly speed granted by another spell by another 30' or so, and between the two the dragon will only be twice as fast as you, while you'll have enough move to scatter for impending breath weapon. If you stick close to the ground you can ignore your turning radius by landing and turning on foot for free.

For the actual slaying, Ennervation is always good. I agree that combining spells like Sonic Weapon and Weapon of energy for extra d6's is a good idea, you can get an extra 3-4d6 if you scour the books to find them all. Especially make sure the ranger is making use of the ranger spells from the Spell Compendium, they're what make rangers actually able to ranger.

[Elfin]

So, my plan as it stands is this:
1.Tell the villagers to barricade themselves in the most heavily-fortified building in the town, armed with ranged weapons to snipe at any enemies who reach them.

2.Have the elves hold the line, fighting the main battle against the ogres and undead.

3.Have cleric and wizard buff and cast fly on warblade and ranger.

4.Let the cleric stay with the elves to help with the undead.

5.Wizard goes to take the fight to the dragon.

6.Warblade and ranger mow through a horde of ogres until they're at the dragon, who has (hopefully) been weakened by the wizard.

7.Finish off dragon

8. Cake!
(Also, mourn for the dead and, if necessary, rebuild the town)

[Babale]

You could do this: Get a number of Immovable Rods, tie them to a heavy, heavy chain of some sort, with a loop at the end in noose style, then get it on the dragon while he's flying, probably by making it and the ranger invisible and flying overhead. Instant leash and if he's flying fast enough, choking damage.

[aje8]

Shivering Touch is an excellent spell for dragon slaying..... though you'd obviously have to get around it's spell resitance and get close (or use metamagic to increase the range) and the like but only a couple of Shivering Touch spells and it'd be down for the count.

Enervation would be an excellent debuff. It removes the dragon's spell slots, reduces it's hp AND reduces it's combat ability.... a couple of these and a way to get around spell resitance and that dragon won't be much of a threat.

For the mooks, Stinking Cloud, Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Glitterdust and such would all be good options.

[AslanCross]

Shivering Touch is an excellent spell for dragon slaying..... though you'd obviously have to get around it's spell resitance and get close (or use metamagic to increase the range) and the like but only a couple of Shivering Touch spells and it'd be down for the count.

Scintillating scales. That's a +18 deflection bonus. The dragon has sorcerer levels, so it's likely to have it. Frankly, Shivering Touch is the most overrated dragon-killer. It's easily negated and would require the dragon to be sitting around waiting for the wizard to walk up to it. IMO it's best to always assume the dragon is going to stay in flight.

[Talic]

Dragon rule for breath weapons:

If I can hit 3 people with it, use it. Otherwise, stick to melee attacks, etc.

Notable exception: If I can fly, and my enemies have a meager ranged offense.


So: Stay spread. That keeps the dragon meleeing. Then, you can use any number of tactics to hold it down in melee.


Player rule: Dragons are good enemies, but bad casters. A fullcaster with a Dispel Magic / Greater Dispel Magic should always be able to nuke a dragon's buffs.

Superior Invisibility, Greater Dispel Magic, and Orbs / Enervation / Etc are the typical order of the day vs dragons. Shivering Touch is valid, if cheesy, once you hit up that GDM, or a true strike.

[Gorbash]

Also, tell the Cleric to prepare Freedom of Movements. Dragons have high grapple modifiers, and can be a nuisance with Snatch tactics.

Ray of Dizziness (Slow with no save) is pure gold against dragons, limiting them to 1 attack per round if they are already in melee. That's win, right there.

After that it's mostly harmless, so it's just a matter of reducing its AC so that party can hit it easier. Ray of Sickness (or Stolen Breath), Ray of Exhaustion (hit it again with the same for Exhaustion because he'll probably make the save), Fear (1 round, though) and that's one roast dragon.

[OverdrivePrime]

If you can get to the battleground early, I'd have the cleric cast Hallow on the location (takes 24 hours, so be sure to protect her). That should make any clashes with undead fairly brief. Hooking the hallowed area up with Protection from Acid or Freedom of Movement would be pretty handy as well.

I'd have the cleric act as the primary debuffer on the dragon. Dispels, Dimensional Anchor, a heightened Blindness, or Bestow curse, all would help the battle.

[Elfin]

Thanks for the advice, everyone; it helps a lot. I also got the wizard's player to email me his character's spellbook:
All 0-level
1st-Summon Monster I, Grease, Obscuring Mist, Ray of Enfeeblement, Magic Missile, Feather Fall, Expeditious Retreat, Shield, Tenser's Floating Disc
2-Glitterdust, Web, Summon Monster II, Melf's Acid Arrow, Protection from Arrows, Scorching Ray, Bull's Strength, Owl's Wisdom, Fox's Cunning, Bear's Endurance
3-Stinking Cloud, Protection From Energy, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Summon Monster III, Flame Arrow, Dispel Magic, Explosive Runes, Fly, Haste
4-Polymorph, Solid Fog, Dimensional Anchor, Enervation, Globe of Invulnerability (Lesser), Dimension Door, Evard's Black Tentacles, Summon Monster IV
5-Teleport, Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Wall of Force, Contact Other Plane, Summon Monster V

I also happen to know he has Enlarge Spell, Widen Spell, Maximize Spell, Empower Spell, and Quicken Spell in the way of metamagic feats.

[OverdrivePrime]

Does your wizard have the opportunity to learn any new spells prior to the battle? His spellbook seems to be too heavy on blasting and too light on save or suck spells to take on the dragon himself.

Current spells that I being of use:
Glitterdust, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, Protection from Energy, Dispel Magic, Haste, Solid Fog (very useful, as mentioned above), Dimensional Anchor, Enervation and Wall of Force. If you guys are in over your heads, Teleport might be handy too.

[Elfin]

I'm not sure whether the wizard will have time to study or not, but he might be able to pull off some.
What are good spells to add to his repetoire?

[Fizban]

Upon further review, unless the dragon is way far out of your league, Wings of the Dragon + Wings of Swift Flying will make you very nearly as fast as it is. Not that you need to chase it down, but being able to means that it can't just make strafing runs until you're toast.

Excellent point about the dispelling, dragons do have horrible CL for their CR, so you should be able to dispel their buffs. And apparently they changed Scintillating Scales from 1/2 to your entire natural armor bonus, yikes. Still, a quick dispel will take care of it so you can hit with your debuffs. Assuming you can survive setting up while it pounds on you, good no-save debufs include: Ray of Sickness (-2 on all saves, yay!), Ray of Dizziness (mentioned above, slow no save), Launch Item +Flask of Atruman Oil (see Planar handbook, -4 penalty of fort saves), and of course Ennervation.

Spellcraft check (identify ongoing effects), Dispel Magic if Scintillating Scales is up, Ray of Dizziness (deny crazy full attacks), Ray of Exhaustion (fatigue denies charges [it can still partial charge through the dizziness]). Now it has to choose between moving or attacking every turn, and can only make one attack. If you stay out of reach (easy enough with Wings of the Dragon speed) and avoid AoOs you're fine, and Resist Energy will stop nearly the whole breath weapon by itself. You may now attack at relative leisure.

Ray of Sickness is -2 to all saves, Tanglefoot Bag is another -2 reflex, Ray of Clumsiness is another -2 or -3, fatigue is another -1. Feel free to quicken with a Lesser Rod of Quicken or some wands with Metamagic Wand Grips. Imbue Familiar with Spell ability would double the wizard's action output, but it's 6th level so he'd need to level up or get a scroll. This should get you well above even odds on beating it's reflex save on any spell, now we just find something tasty. All we need to do now is find a reflex spell to immobilize it and then drop a couple Stone Spheres or a Vortex of Teeth on it and wait until it falls over from continuous damage. Manyjaws is nice too. And Shroud of Flame, because setting someone on fire with no save when they can't do anything about it is great. Ray of Ice and Bands of Steel can both immobilize on a failed save, but they can be broken with a strength check the dragon can make in a couple tries. Solid Fog is foolproof, but you'll need it to stay still long enough for you to get both the damage and fog in place.

With only the one attack per round you could let the other characters beat on it instead, since even if it flees it can only get 150' away, and they can charge with Wings of the Dragon and hit it with reach weapons with speed to spare. Keep in mind this dragon is only CR11, about the same as your party's level, so you should really be able to take four of them a day. Unless he throws the whole army at you at once, it's not going to be much of a fight. If he does, I still recommend Vortex of Teeth: it wrecks a 40' radius with decent continuous damage, and it's a force effect in case any of those undead are incorporeal. Unless those are elite ogres I'd bet you could take the whole lot out with one spell. And who doesn't want to destroy an army with a giant school of magical piranhas?

To sum up: hit the army with wide area spells to stop them all at once. Entangle from any source will slow them down and a Vortex of Teeth should shred them good. To take the dragon, all you need to do it slow it down with Ray of Dizziness and stop it from charging with Ray of Exhaustion: this will limit it to single attacks, breath weapon, and AoOs, and it can't even hit you if you don't stay in range because it can't move and attack at the same time. A 2nd level resist energy will blunt the breath weapon enough that it isn't a threat and you can just pound on it from there. Bring some scrolls of Wings of the Dragon for it's high flight speed so if it tries to run you can chase it down. Remember that the dragon isn't very powerful compared to you, and in a straight fight it's toast.

Now, if the DM's being evil, instead of facing them all on the flat plain of PC advantage, you'll have to enter the trap and ambush filled lair where you'll be flanked by the orges at the entrance, the dragon within, and shadows flitting out of the walls. That'll require a lot more preparation and/or improvisation.

[Elfin]

I was just out with the DM and the cleric's player...
Eventually, the subject of the game came up, and apparently I was wrong- the dragon is a mature adult.
Gulp.
So the wizard should research Ray of Dizziness, Vortex of Teeth, and Wings of Swift Flying, Slow, and Ray of Exhaustion?
Thanks a lot for all the help.

[quick_comment]

Wings of Swift flying is sorcerer only, but yes to the others

[Fizban]

Mature Adult doesn't change much, but it does some. It's bigger, so you'll have to enlarge and use reach weapons both to avoid AoOs, and you should probably bring Assay Resistance since it's spell resistance is high enough to be annoying. Other than that, the plan is still the same.

The important spells are Ray of Dizziness, Ray of Exhaustion, and Wings of the Dragon. The rays will limit the dragon to either a move or standard action each round, while preventing a partial charge so it can't move and attack period. The wings give you enough flight speed that your double move will beat it's single move while dizzy.

Dispel Magic will remove it's buffs which is importand if it knows the Scintillating Scales spell, which will make your rays almost impossible to land. Resist Energy will make it's breath weapon nearly worthless. Assay Resistance will let you beat it's SR every time so you don't waste any spells. These are useful, but not neccesarily required.

Entangle should slow the army down and Vortex of Teeth is a very large area spell with the force descriptor that you can use on them while they're slowed down, which will also affect incorporeal undead as a bonus. Your party should have plenty of ways to deal with them already, this is just how I'd do it, you can live without these.

I'm curious as to how this dragon has an undead army with only 5 sorcerer levels. If the DM gave it extra sorcerer levels then you're on your own.

[Myrmex]

A mature adult black dragon with casting means (potentially):
Scintillating Scales (lol @ touch attacks)
Gust of Wind (screw you, clouds)
Dimension Door (I'm wherever I want to be)
Improved Invisibility
Blood Wind (natural attacks as ranged attacks, awesome evocation spell)

Metabreath feats can make life pretty nasty for you guys, too.

If the DM took the time to put the dragon together properly, standard dragon slaying methods aren't going to help.

Also, don't forget about Frightful Presence. Keep your elf army far back, since they'll cower at the dragon's first pass.

I'm curious as to how this dragon has an undead army with only 5 sorcerer levels. If the DM gave it extra sorcerer levels then you're on your own.

Since when did BBEGs start following the same rules as PCs?

[Fizban]

Dimension Door (I'm wherever I want to be)
Improved Invisibility

Again, only 5th level casting. Stock dragon doesn't even have 3rd level spells.

Metabreath feats can make life pretty nasty for you guys, too.

Point, but even maximized that's only 56 damage, which Resist Energy will blunt enough for them to survive and prepare for further volleys.

If the DM took the time to put the dragon together properly, standard dragon slaying methods aren't going to help.

Naturally, but all we can do is advise on bland combat with the stock monsters. I fully agree that if the DM has put effort into it, the fight will be on the dragon's terms and a heck of a lot harder. I'm pretty sure my strategy is still useful though. Not that you need much strategy to make Ray of Dizziness awesome.

Since when did BBEGs start following the same rules as PCs?

Just pointing it out. He could easily have a bunch of intelligent undead following him of their own will, or for that matter, he could cast Control Undead himself and keep a few (up to 25 if he dumped all his slots in into it) mindless undead under control. And Vortex of Teeth should do them all in if you can immobilize them for a few rounds. Found another spell that could do that: Sleet Storm. 40' radius cylinder of grease with an extra side of can't see your hand in front of your face. Only problem is you can't see to cast into it and if you don't cast it before the VoT they'll all just run for it. I suggest joint action by two party members or Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability once again.

I'd also like to take a moment to point out that most of the spells I'm suggesting are 4th level, so you'll probably need to bring scrolls. And naturally I'm completely ignoring the cleric's input with my arcane focus. He could bring the Resist Energy and Dispel Magic. Holy Storm is a 3rd level spell that could do for area damage quite nicely. Smaller area and damage than VoT, but it only hurts evil creatures. Oddly enough it doesn't do extra damage to undead. Wall of Good at 4th level will hold evil creatures at bay if they fail a will save, good if the army corners you (though they could just shove each other through I suppose), but no better than most walls.

The more I delight in the idea of a storm of piranhas tearing apart enemy forces, the more I expect you'll be fighting them spaced out in small bands throughout the dragon's swampy territory.

[Elfin]

As for the huge undead army, I'm willing to cut my friend a little slack since it's his first time DMing.
The swampy lair is hopefully not a concern, since the dragon will be assaulting a town on the open plains.
Again, thanks for the help.

[Alejandro]

Don't sell the poor peasants short. After all, look what the Ewoks accomplished.