[3.5] Epic level question

[Thelas]

Advance notice: DR in this post means Divine Rank, not Damage Reduction
Consider a level 30 drow wizard with DR 5. I need help finding:
a. ECL
b. CR
[disregard the reviving when dead ability for purposes of this calculation].

Now, I quote d20srd:
' A deity of rank 1 or higher with levels as a sorcerer or a wizard has the ability to treat any creature of a given kind as a familiar, as long as that creature is within a distance of one mile per divine rank of the deity. This special familiar ability only applies to one creature at a time, but the deity can switch between one creature and another instantaneously, as long as the second creature is within range. This special familiar ability does not replace the deity’s ability to have a normal familiar, which could be any kind of eligible creature.'
Can they treat even a creature with more HD/CR than them as a familiar for this? (ie. could the aforementioned wizard have a great wyrm prismatic dragon familiar?) If not, why not?

[quick_comment]

ECL is - (gods are not suitable for PCs)

CR is impossible to estimate. It depends on the salient divine abilities.

[Thelas]

I wasn't saying as a PC, but you're right... ECL is supposed to be CR + factoring in the differences between PCs and NPCs. *throws 2d4 at self for being stupid*.

Can you estimate the CR or is it too big of a range?

[Tequila Sunrise]

Once you get beyond CR 20, you're well into "might be CR 25 for my players, might be CR 45 for your players" territory.

[quick_comment]

The divine powers have such a huge range, its impossible to have a CR for a god without knowing it.

Compare a deity with divine monk to one with life and death. Or alter reality (super-wish at will) vs anhiliating strike (disintegrate at will + save or die on strike)

Arcane mastery gives the god knowledge of all arcane spells plus the ability to make up new spells without research. Compare that to banestrike (all the diety's weapons have a super-bane effect vs a single type)

[Starscream]

Yeah, even though Deities and Demigods allows you to stat them out, many of the divine abilities turns gods more into plot devices than fightable npcs. One of the most common abilities is essentially an at will Wish with no XP cost. Such things were never intended to be used in a fight.

And like Sunrise said, at epic levels CR becomes little more than a vague guideline. Not that it was ever totally reliable, but at this point you really need to just play out the fight in your head and think "could my players handle this?"

[quick_comment]

Yeah, even though Deities and Demigods allows you to stat them out, many of the divine abilities turns gods more into plot devices than fightable npcs. One of the most common abilities is essentially an at will Wish with no XP cost. Such things were never intended to be used in a fight.

And like Sunrise said, at epic levels CR becomes little more than a vague guideline. Not that it was ever totally reliable, but at this point you really need to just play out the fight in your head and think "could my players handle this?"

Forget about alter reality. Mass life and death lets the god kill the entire party, no save, as does divine splendor and regular life and death.

[grautry]

Forget about alter reality. Mass life and death lets the god kill the entire party, no save, as does divine splendor and regular life and death.

True, but Life and Death as well as Divine Splendor require higher DR than 5 which is what we're discussing.

If the wizard happens to have 29 Charisma then he'll have Alter Reality and that alone will make him pretty much unbeatable because he can make every buff in existence permanent on himself.

But I think that just pointing out "hey, deities are unbeatable if they have ability X" is pretty much pointless.

So, for a change let's try to actually help the guy. Let's try to pick SDA's that will make this into an actual encounter instead of just handwaving and going "can't beat him".

I propose those SDA's to try and rank on CR rating:
- Arcane Mastery: knows all spells, can prepare them without a spellbook.
- Divine Spellcasting: Improved Spell Capacity on crack.
- Automatic Metamagic(Quicken) - self explanatory.
- Supreme Initiative
- Something to fill the last spot: like Divine Dodge, Divine Spell Focus or Increased Spell Resistance or something.

Those abilities are still incredibly powerful but they could actually make this into a valid challenge that can probably be rated somehow.

Any takers? I haven't really done that much homebrew - or epic play for that matter - so I'm not the best one to judge CR.

[quick_comment]

Arcane Mastery is game breaking. It lets you research new spells without research time.

[grautry]

Arcane Mastery is game breaking. It lets you research new spells without research time.

Sort of I guess, but it doesn't mean that the spells you research can themselves break the game. They should be comparable in power to other spellcasting. And the fact that you can research new spells in zero time doesn't mean that you can swap them with your prepared spell slots on the fly.

[SilverSheriff]

Once you get beyond CR 20, you're well into "might be CR 25 for my players, might be CR 45 for your players" territory.

Especially with all the Time-Travel based spells I rip from Dragonlance...

[Yora]

I got another epic question regarding epic spellcasting:

How does a spellcaster get such big bonuses to their Spellcraft checks without having three digit class levels?
A really high Intelligence modifier helps, as does Skill Focus (Spellcraft). But that's really not much if you're talking about DCs far in the hundreds.

[Eldan]

Two things, basically: for one, items that increase skill checks are cheap. Any wizard can just get craft wondrous item and the epic version and boost his spellcraft as much as he wants.
The other thing is the mitigating factors: have any party member with leadership, or the ability to cast summoning/gate/planar binding and never worry about DCs again.

[bosssmiley]

DiceFreaks Deity Rules - modifications to the SRD versions to rein in the more arbitrary powers, and to integrate Divine Ranks and SDAs with Core and Epic. Includes thumbnail CR rules for creatures with Divine Ranks.

DvR CHALLENGE RATING
0 +3
1–5 +4 + 1/4 DvR + 1/6 SDAs
6–10 +4 + 1/4 DvR + 1/3 SDAs
11–15 +4 + 1/4 DvR + 1/2 SDAs
16–20 +4 + 1/4 DvR + 2/3 SDAs

DR = Damage Reduction
DvR = Divine Rank
SDA = Salient Divine Attribute (god feats)