Shadow Magic?

[Admiral Squish]

Okay, I'm looking over ToM, and while I hear all sorts of rave reviews of the binder and slams on the truenamer... What about the third magical source in the book, the shadow casters? I've got no eye when it comes to balance, but It certainly seems like it'd be interesting. What's the consensus? Good? Bad? Ugly?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Medium or medium-low power iirc.

[quick_comment]

They are pretty weak, although they have some neat stuff. If you google it, the creator has a list of fixes that brings them up to be in line with T3 I think.

[tyckspoon]

Interesting mechanics with some weird hangups. Their mysteries are generally stronger than an equivalent level caster's spells, but they have a restricted list of effects they can generate and, most damagingly, a very harsh limit of uses/day. Kind of like an inverse Warlock, and I think they land pretty close to the Warlock's power too (although with less further support, so you don't have other Mysteries to choose from/Hellfire shenanigans/prestige classing to boost the Shadowcaster.) Relatively easy fix, however- just making their casts per encounter instead of per day makes them quite solid.

[Lord Loss]

Shadowcaster is neat, espescially when the DM (Me ), misreads the spell killing shadows so that a lvl 10 Shadowcaster can 1hk large groups of enemies...

[Edge of Dreams]

I love the flavor of the shadowcaster, and with the fixes provided by the creator (which include giving them bonus spells-per-day like other casters) they are definitely playable and, IMHO, exactly at the right level of power for where a caster should be relative to (non-ToB, non-cheese) non-casters.

[Starbuck_II]

There are alot of good shadow magic. But unless you take same one twice (doubling the amount/day ie 2, 4, or 6/day instead of 1, 2, or 3) the uses/day are vey limited.

For Fundamentals:
1) Caul of Shadows is a personal Shield of Faith, but 1 rd/level.
2) arrow of Dusk: 2d4, x3 Crit on a 20 ranged touch attack.
3) Sight Obcured: bonus to hide, sleight of hand, etc.

1st:
a. Carpet of Shadow makes areas difficuly terrain
b. Voice of Shadows dazes undead and constructs or command spell on living creatures.

2nd:
I like Piercing Sight because See Invisibility And Darkvision is useful.
Black fire makes areas burn enemies with cold if they fail saves each time they touch those areas (makes bullrush actually useful in combination)

3rd:
Killing Shadows is my favorite. You need some damage dealing if you can't cast very often. 1d8/lv, Will save for 1/2. 30 ft cone.

I recommend Favored Mystery on Killing Shadows to make it supernatural (no SR)/gain extra useage.

[RTGoodman]

They are pretty weak, although they have some neat stuff. If you google it, the creator has a list of fixes that brings them up to be in line with T3 I think.

Indeed. Specifically, HERE are Ari Marmell's "unofficial" fixes for the Shadowcaster.

Now, if only ENWorld wasn't always friggin' down, you could see them.

[Realms of Chaos]

I made a large fix of my own awhile back.

Warning: The below link leads to a megathread that approaches the length of an actual 3.5 sourcebook so get ready for a long read. On the bright side, all of it is related to shadows and shadow magic.

Descent of Shadows

My approach to solving the problem, in short, was introducing new material rather than unofficially changing the base mechanics of the class (think of how much the druid is helped by natural spell, for example. As another example, think of how the orb spells have become an absolute staple since their creation in Complete Arcane. I was going for the same general effect).

That said, combining the materials I created with the creator's fix, you have something approaching Wizard-level for raw insanity (there are even rules for epic shadow-casting that come close to rivaling epic spellcasting).

[JoshuaZ]

The power level is slightly lower than standard arcane or divine magic but not so much as to make it problematic. However, one issue with shadow magic that in my mind makes it very meh is that the mechanics and fluff don't really fit well together. The mechanic is very nice and simple but the fluff really doesn't seem to fit well with the highly restrictive nature of the mechanic (for example even a point based system would make more sense fluff wise). This is in contrast to for example the binder where the mechanics and fluff fit together perfectly.

[Zaq]

There's a fair bit to dislike about them. It takes them proportionally much longer than other casters to climb out of the "Alright, I had my round of fun, where's my crossbow?" hole. Their spells-per-day (yeah yeah, mysteries per day, whatever) are extremely limited, and very much lack flexibility. They have relatively few utility abilities (did you know that Shadowcasters never get the ability to fly? The closest they come is an eighth-level mystery that makes them incorporeal, which is sort of like flight, but yeah. So far as I know, they're the only caster-type class that has such a hard time getting off the ground. Weird, huh?). The path inflexibility really hurts, as well, and despite what the intent of the class seemed to be (and what a lot of people seem to think), their mysteries are rarely more powerful than arcane spells of the same level. (There are a COUPLE exceptions, but they're rare. Usually arcane spells of the same level are just as good, if not better.)

That said, I still like them. I think they offer a way to play the archetype of a magic-user without threatening to steamroll the entire game without even trying. They do have a different feel about them, and they do have a rare few tricks that more mainstream casters can't easily replicate (Flicker is amazing. Almost certainly not worth burning the mysteries known on the earlier path mysteries, but it's one of the best defensive measures ever. Of course, conjurers can take Abrupt Jaunt, but we don't talk about that.). In the game I'm currently playing, one of my backup characters is a Shadowcaster, just for the hell of it.

They're definitely several notches below a normal full caster or even one of the "subpar" caster classes (like shugenja or warmage), but once you hit a high enough level that you won't immediately run out of tricks (say, level 5 or so?) they're at least better than most non-ToB melee. Sure, that's not a very high bar to cross, but that's because they're not that powerful. They're not bad the way a monk or a ranger is bad, but they're really not good.

[peacenlove]

As a shadowcaster fan i can only second the opinions here if you want to play the class. But if you are a DM, shadow magic is not weak against players, but simple and efficient (Supernatural abilities tend to solve A LOT of problems).
Also while most people believe that the shadowcaster lacks options, with a lenient DM you can use all of the tricks a sorcerer uses (such as runestaves and Versatile spellcaster.) Only thing that is difficult to bring up to par are the various Metashadow feats (that are the equilevant of the Sudden metamagic feats).
Having played a shadowcaster for more than a year (levels 1 to 15), and then a nocturmancer for another year (levels 6 to 14) (and with the help of Realms of Chaos aforementioned work) i loved that class, and while it wasn't at wizard levels, it was okay power wise (but lagged behind at high levels and the lack of options surely hurted which led me and my DM to up the class a while ).

[Maerok]

I've found that much of the homebrew around here is more interesting than what ended up in ToM as far as shadow magic is concerned. You've already got the spells, the class itself just needs to be tuned. Adding better shadow evocation and conjuration versions would help things a lot.

[Admiral Squish]

Hmm... Now, what about the PRCs related? Master of Shadow seems like it would be pretty fun. Shadowsmith looks really fun to me, but I have a tendency to fall into the monk trap, so I'm not really sure.

[DCironlich]

I have played an awakened plant Shadowcaster/Master of Shadow in a Dragonlance campaign for nearly two years. I am currently a 5th level Shadowcaster/8th level Master of Shadow.

In my experience, the Shadowcaster is weakened by the restrictive nature of the path system and by the narrow use of many mysteries. I consider the class weaker than a generalist wizard, but perhaps on par with an illusionist or necromancer.

Some mysteries are very potent and help the Shadowcaser stand out. One example is Umbral Touch, which allows the Shadowcaster to touch an opponent for 5d6 damage (unnamed damage) plus Slow (Fortitude save); he may hold the charge up to one minute per level or until he's discharged one hit per level. This mystery is even more deadly if given to a familiar or Shadow Elemental (of a Master of Shadow) to deliver due to Hide in Plain Sight and incorporeality.

Another deadly mystery is Afraid of the Dark, which causes 1d6 + 1/4 levels (max +5) Wisdom damage. Unlike similar spells (e.g., Ray of Enfeeblement), this ray touches the target unerringly, permits a Will save for half damage, and allows the ability score to fall to 0 (i.e. unconscious).

I recognize that my experience with the Shadowcaster may be different from that of others because I chose to enter the Master of Shadows Prestige Class, which prevented me from receiving many bonus feats in the main class. The Shadowcaster has many metashadow feats to modify mysteries in unique and interesting ways. I particularly enjoy the Line of Shadow feat, which allows you to cast a mystery at an opponent who remains within range, but has left your line of sight within one round/your INT modifier.

All in all, I've enjoyed playing the Shadowcaster/Master of Shadow as written in the Tome of Magic.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Here's my theory as to why they're less powerful and less popular: Where ToB was a playtest for 4e martial characters, ToM was a playtest for casters. The binder became the 4e warlock; the truenamer was tossed out as unworkable; the shadowcaster?

There's a fair bit to dislike about them. It takes them proportionally much longer than other casters to climb out of the "Alright, I had my round of fun, where's my crossbow?" hole. Their spells-per-day (yeah yeah, mysteries per day, whatever) are extremely limited, and very much lack flexibility. They have relatively few utility abilities (did you know that Shadowcasters never get the ability to fly? The closest they come is an eighth-level mystery that makes them incorporeal, which is sort of like flight, but yeah. So far as I know, they're the only caster-type class that has such a hard time getting off the ground. Weird, huh?). The path inflexibility really hurts, as well, and despite what the intent of the class seemed to be (and what a lot of people seem to think), their mysteries are rarely more powerful than arcane spells of the same level. (There are a COUPLE exceptions, but they're rare. Usually arcane spells of the same level are just as good, if not better.)

That said, I still like them. I think they offer a way to play the archetype of a magic-user without threatening to steamroll the entire game without even trying. They do have a different feel about them, and they do have a rare few tricks that more mainstream casters can't easily replicate (Flicker is amazing. Almost certainly not worth burning the mysteries known on the earlier path mysteries, but it's one of the best defensive measures ever. Of course, conjurers can take Abrupt Jaunt, but we don't talk about that.). In the game I'm currently playing, one of my backup characters is a Shadowcaster, just for the hell of it.

They're definitely several notches below a normal full caster or even one of the "subpar" caster classes (like shugenja or warmage), but once you hit a high enough level that you won't immediately run out of tricks (say, level 5 or so?) they're at least better than most non-ToB melee. Sure, that's not a very high bar to cross, but that's because they're not that powerful. They're not bad the way a monk or a ranger is bad, but they're really not good.

• Extremely limited spells per day.
• No flight until very high levels.
• Very limited theme.
• Individual spells have /day limits, rather than preparing a mix.
• Far less powerful than other casters.
• Their spells generally do what traditional spells do, but with a twist or extra limitation.
• They eventually get at-will fundamentals.
• They have very few blasty spells, instead focusing on status effects.
• More feats than normal (with the right paths).

What does that sound like to you? If you said 4e wizard, you're probably right. Which means you need to play them like a 4e wizard to be successful, which (A) is something people don't want to do if they're looking to play a 1e/2e/3e-ish caster and (B) a bad idea because 3e doesn't have minions. Shadowcasters are good if you have other classes in the party (focusing on teamwork); they're good at what they do to an extent but are mostly useless outside of their main schtick (role protection), the similarities go on.

To sum up: Shadowcasters can be good, but it requires a different playstyle than all other casters; the warlock and binder are sufficiently different to make that clear, but the shadowcaster is stuck in the middle where it just doesn't work all that well.

[peacenlove]

On PrC, having experience with the nocturmancer (with a wizard side although sorcerer is not half as bad due to charisma synergy) i used the usual great offensive wizard spells (like grease glitterdust and general buffing) while staying out of harms way with shadow magic (flicker via a runestaff, dimension door as a spell like and later a supernatural ability via favored mystery and the -very powerful- dancing shadows and shadow skin). Also i was very effective vs casters (partly because my DM used low level metamagicked spells vs the party and partly because he allowed me to counterspell spell like abilities with innate counterspell and shadows persistence worked even against spell like abilities.) DCIronlich covered the master of shadow. Having faced a child of night, my DM was of the opinion that it is not worth the lost caster level and the lost fortitude save bonus, and its a meh class overall.
(If needed i can give advice on realms of chaos work too, having playtested it for more than one year, send me a PM if you need advice or clarifications)

[quick_comment]

How well does nocturmancer work? Yeah, yeah, its like the mystic theurge, but shadowcasters get some stuff that nobody else does, like bend perspective and line of shadow.

[peacenlove]

How well does nocturmancer work? Yeah, yeah, its like the mystic theurge, but shadowcasters get some stuff that nobody else does, like bend perspective and line of shadow.

bend perspective its like arcane eye
It gives good, hard to dispel defences. Its stronger than the MT, but you should really focus on spells that don't have DC. Go all out offence/buffing on the arcane side and use sp/su defensive abilities on the mystery side (or just burn them for Innate CS). Overall enjoyable class and can stand on its own.

[quick_comment]

bend perspective its like arcane eye
It gives good, hard to dispel defences. Its stronger than the MT, but you should really focus on spells that don't have DC. Go all out offence/buffing on the arcane side and use sp/su defensive abilities on the mystery side (or just burn them for Innate CS). Overall enjoyable class and can stand on its own.

Maybe its not bend perspective Im thinking of. They have a mystery that is like project image on steroids. I came up with the idea of casting ghostform, moving into a wall and using the shadow clone or whatever to cast all my spells. Like astral projection, but less cheesy.

[peacenlove]

Ephemeral image yeah that path is the best defensive path (and tops at timestop). While you are at high levels get truth revealed on a runestaff (rest of the path isn't worth it) and the 7th level mystery from the web enchancment (the grappling one).
Edit: link is here