Epic Saves

[Babale]

So my level 27 necromancer got owned by a level 21 Cleric due to one failed save on Implosion. My saves ARE pretty low-+19 on Fort, for example. So, how can I get my saves into the Stratosphere? Spells? Items? I need +30 or so, higher if possible.

[Salt_Crow]

Superior Resistance (SC, I believe) gives you +6 resistance bonus to all saves. Bye-bye cloak of resistance.

[Babale]

Yeah, I have that cloak. Still not enough...

[quick_comment]

Epic wards vs specific save or dies.

Celerity.

Epic spells boosting saves.

Spell turning.

Effugulent epuration.

Ring of spell battle.

[PId6]

Or just Epic Ward vs all spells 0-9.

[quick_comment]

Or just Epic Ward vs all spells 0-9.

At level 27?

[HamsterOfTheGod]

So my level 27 necromancer got owned by a level 21 Cleric due to one failed save on Implosion.

Become undead already...

[PId6]

At level 27?

Epic Leadership.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Saves are similar to AC, AB, or grapple checks at epic levels. You either are using scientific notation to express it, or your actual number won't matter and your resources would be better spent finding new and creative ways to be outright immune to any effect that would require a save(Energy Immunityx4, Death Ward, Mind Blank, Freedom of Movement, and similar are a good start, as is finding an odd type[Undead 4 teh winzorz] with a massive number of immunities). You won't boost your weak saves enough(6 lower than your good save without multiclassing, and for a non-pumped stat to boot) without so much investment that the rest of your character will suffer.

[Babale]

Become undead already...

I'm going Worm that Walks, actually.

Anyways, how would I be immune to a spell like Implosion? It's not energy...

[quick_comment]

I'm going Worm that Walks, actually.

Anyways, how would I be immune to a spell like Implosion? It's not energy...

Epic ward against it would only be DC 32, and last 24 hours.

[Babale]

Yes, but I can't guess exactly what Save or Die spells my enemies will cast.

what level would a spell that lets you add your level to any Save or Die saves be?

[PId6]

Make it permanent for x5, but you can easily mitigate that down to DC 1 with Leadership. Ultimate broken Epic Spell combo: take Epic Leadership for a high level cohort and a huge load of wizard followers. Make that cohort take Leadership for another cohort and another group of followers. Rinse and repeat. Each level 1 follower grants -1 to the DC, and you'll end up with hundreds/thousands of them, so you can pretty much cast anything using this.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

I'm going Worm that Walks, actually.

Anyways, how would I be immune to a spell like Implosion? It's not energy...

Undead are immune to Fort saves that don't also affect objects. That is they made Implosion a once per round "kill" spell instead of a once per round Disintegrate even though it does not have the Death descriptor and is in the Destruction domain.

And...er...a Worm That Walks is an Aberration not Undead. Hmm...I think its still subject to Death Spells or Implosion???

[quick_comment]

An epic ward against all spells, levels 1-9 would be DC 194. It takes 10 rounds to casts and lasts 24 hours.

This blocks all your buffs though. You have to leave holes for your own spells, and this requires an ad-hoc cost up to your DM.

You can get SR 60 for an epic spell with DC 167.

[tyckspoon]

Assuming you are permitted to use Epic Spellcasting, develop the following spell in Fortitude, Reflex, and Will versions:

Really Epic Save Bonus:
Spellcraft DC: ~40 (30 ranks + Take 10. Add any other Spellcraft bonuses you have into it if desired.)
Casting Time: 10 Minutes (Increase Casting Time mitigating factor applied x9.)
Range: Touch
Target: Creature Touched
Duration: 180 hours (Increase Duration 100% factor applied x9; lasts a little over a week.)

Effect:
+1 Enhancement bonus to (Save) [17 Spellcraft out of 40]. Increase (Save) bonus by +11 [+2 Spellcraft per point; 39 Spellcraft out of 40.] End result: +12 Enhancement to one save category that lasts a week.

Cost to develop: 351,000 GP, 14,040 XP, and 8 days.

That shouldn't be all that expensive if your GM is providing a suitably Epic amount of wealth. As an Enhancement bonus, it will stack with a Resistance bonus from Superior Resistance/a Cloak of Resistance. As a Touch spell, you can cast it on other members of your party who may need a particular save buffed as well. With a duration of a week, you can cycle the spells and reserve your other two Epic slots for more immediately useful effects.

After (or before that, if you *don't* have suitably Epic money to throw around) there is the old standard of stacking small effects from multiple sources. Pick up +6 items of Con/Wis/Dex if you don't already have them; 36k is chump change for an Epic character. A Luckstone adds +1 Luck bonus to saves plus assorted other things for just 20k. A Pale Green Ioun Stone is +1 Competence to many useful things, including saves. Getting the Parrying property put on your weapon is worth +1 Insight. You should be able to get to +20-22 from item and spell bonuses alone, and then your actual base saves will push you over +30.

You can go much, much higher with Epic Spellcasting, but it requires cheesing the hell out of the Ritual mitigation factors. If you have another Epic Spellcaster in your group, however, you can at least work together; get him to develop Really Epic Save Bonus Of A Different Bonus Type- Sacred is a good one. The Spellcraft mods are higher, so it'll turn out worth roughly half as much as your spell, but another +6 or so is still significant (note: If you do have an Epic Spellcasting friend, you can reduce the cost or increase the potency of your Epic Buffs by being Ritual participants in each other's spells.)

[quick_comment]

You could also dip a level of swordsage or warblade and pick up the 3 diamond mind maneuvers that let you replace saves with concentration checks. If you take it for level 28, you will have a high enough initiator level that you can get the maneuver that adds your initiator level to saves as well (which in your case would be +15)

You can probably forgo the will one, and just pick up action before thought, mind over body, diamond defense and whatever else.

[Mongoose87]

Get a CHA booster and dip two levels of Paladin. Boo, yeah.

[Lysander]

Get a bunch of wizard followers. Transform them all so they permanently look like you. Hooray army of spellcasting decoys!

[PId6]

Get a bunch of wizard followers. Transform them all so they permanently look like you. Hooray army of spellcasting decoys!

Say hello to 80-ft radius Sunburst. Bye bye army.

[AstralFire]

Say hello to 80-ft radius Sunburst. Bye bye army.

For a moment I thought you were talking about hygiene and sun being lethal to an army of nerds.

[PId6]

For a moment I thought you were talking about hygiene and sun being lethal to an army of nerds.

Actually, I like this version better. *ahem* Um, yes that was exactly what I meant in the first place.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yes, but I can't guess exactly what Save or Die spells my enemies will cast.

You're an Epic level spellcaster. You shouldn't NEED to guess, unless you banned divination. Wait, you actually can't ban that school, can you? Yeah. And I know you must be a wizard, 'cause if you were a Dread Necromancer you'd be a Lich by now.

The point is, guessing is for chumps. You didn't make it to level 27 by being a chump.

[Babale]

Actually, I didn't. I just started at level 27.

Also, I'm LE. No paladin.

As for Concentration instead of saves: Could someone whip up a non-epic spell that lets me do that?

[quick_comment]

Actually, I didn't. I just started at level 27.

Also, I'm LE. No paladin.

As for Concentration instead of saves: Could someone whip up a non-epic spell that lets me do that?

There arent any spells that let you do that. There are a few items though.

[Eldariel]

MiC has some items that grant non-Resistance bonuses to saves; they enable you to up your saves by a bunch. You can also generate an epic spell that gives you ~+50 Constitution and so on (and should, really, 'cause else you'll run outta HP soon), or a bunch of them for different types of bonuses (epic spells can be made for each bonus type).

But really, not being immune to mundane magic is unforgivable at that point (27! That's 6 levels later than you'd normally acquire the immunities). Just make the Ward vs. 0-9 level magic already. Chain-Gate or Leadership or just make the casting time fcking long. Then go on a fast time plane (or just make one of your own) and cast it in a day (of course you make the duration permanent).

[Siosilvar]

Actually, I didn't. I just started at level 27.

Also, I'm LE. No paladin.

As for Concentration instead of saves: Could someone whip up a non-epic spell that lets me do that?

Feat: Martial Study (Moment of Perfect Mind) for Will saves, 1/encounter. Minimum level 2.
Feat: Martial Study (Action Before Thought) for Reflex saves, 1/encounter. Minimum level 6.
Feat: Martial Study (Mind over Body) for Fortitude saves, 1/encounter. Minimum level 10.

[tonberrian]

Check out Variant Paladins, especially the Paladin of Tyranny. Check out Blackguard.

Heck, check out X stat to Y bonus.

[Babale]

MiC has some items that grant non-Resistance bonuses to saves; they enable you to up your saves by a bunch. You can also generate an epic spell that gives you ~+50 Constitution and so on (and should, really, 'cause else you'll run outta HP soon), or a bunch of them for different types of bonuses (epic spells can be made for each bonus type).

But really, not being immune to mundane magic is unforgivable at that point (27! That's 6 levels later than you'd normally acquire the immunities). Just make the Ward vs. 0-9 level magic already. Chain-Gate or Leadership or just make the casting time fcking long. Then go on a fast time plane (or just make one of your own) and cast it in a day (of course you make the duration permanent).

I'd love to do that, and already have my own plane that bends to my will, but... It's really cheesy. I doubt my DM would let me do that, as he always says: "If you do something cheesy, I counter with equal cheesiness."

[Eldariel]

Bleh, epic casters should bother with at least some basic wards. Being affected by Disjunctions, Anti-Magic Fields and company is sorta pathetic. I mean, what's the worst he'd do, make opponents use similar wardings too? You don't really care.

And make a Con-booster anyways (if not going UD); you'll really want the HP. I mean, you aren't doing anything offensively insane here, just making yourself slightly harder to kill (not as hard as a level 20 Wizard that doesn't want to die, mind you, so it really isn't that bad).