3.5 DMM Persist buffs

[JeenLeen]

My team has two clerics with DMM Extend and Persist. We are looking for buffs that can help the entire party. (They already have the normal Greater Visage of the Diety, etc. on themselves.)

So far we have:
Elation (BoED)
Recitation (Spell Compendium)
Vigorous Circle (Spell Compendium)

Does anyone have any other ideas? Ideally, it would be spells that effect the entire team, not one-person spells like Freedom of Movement.

By houserule, Death Ward and anything that has the effect of Death Ward is banned. We're in an undead-heavy campaign, so he doesn't want anything that basically makes us immune to most undead's effects. Spells that make us immune to just ability damage, negative levels, or something else would probably be allowed, though.

Edit: any books allowed, except ToB. 3.0 books not updated are also allowed.

[Douglas]

Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Spell Compendium).

[quick_comment]

Edit: any books allowed, except ToB. 3.0 books not updated are also allowed.

Jeez, he allows DMM: Persist, but not ToB?

Anyway, Sheltered Vitality is a good one. It prevents ability damage or drain.

Favor of Illmater, prevents stunning, dazing, compulsions and some other stuff.

[Mr.Moron]

A 1-level dip in Prestiege paladin isn't terrible for expanding your spell list in general. In terms of DMM persisting, it nets you Sacred Haven. A minor bonus to AC (+2 Sacred) but effectively gives everyone Uncanny Dodge.

[Gorbash]

Mass Lesser Vigor. Mass Convinction. Mass Shield of Faith. Mass Energy Resistance.

[JeenLeen]

Favor of Illmater, prevents stunning, dazing, compulsions and some other stuff.

What book is that?
Please list sourcebook with the spells. Page, too, if known.

[Mr.Moron]

Mass Lesser Vigor. Mass Convinction. Mass Shield of Faith. Mass Energy Resistance.

Mass Shield of Faith has a range of Short
Mass Conviction has a range of Medium
Mass Resist Energy has a range of Short

They aren't legal for DMM. Great regular buffs though.

[Douglas]

What book is that?
Please list sourcebook with the spells. Page, too, if known.

It was renamed and republished in Spell Compendium as Favor of the Martyr, I believe. Its range is, sadly, not eligible for Persistent Spell.

[Kaiyanwang]

Vigor spells have a maxed duration. By FAQs, such duration (25 rounds or so) overcomes Persist.

If ignoring this makes your game better, i recommend to do it, but "officially*" you can't do it.


* We all know that FAQs are not so perfect.

[JeenLeen]

Mass Shield of Faith has a range of Short
Mass Conviction has a range of Medium
Mass Resist Energy has a range of Short

They aren't legal for DMM. Great regular buffs though.

I reread DMM and didn't see any limitation based on the range of the spell. Was that an errata comment? What is the limitation?

[quick_comment]

You can only apply persist to spells with a fixed range.

You can make any spell eligable for persistent spell by apply ocular spell metamagic. Ocular turns the spell into a ray with a flat range of 60ft, which is then persistable.

You could also chain regular touch spells.

[Curmudgeon]

You can make any spell eligable for persistent spell by apply ocular spell metamagic. Ocular turns the spell into a ray with a flat range of 60ft, which is then persistable.

That's not consistent with what the feat says:

You can cast a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or less as an ocular spell. ... Only ray spells and spells with a target other than personal can be cast as ocular spells.

There's nothing in the feat description that says it converts other types of spells into rays. It's got to be a ray first before it's eligible for Ocular Spell.

[Keld Denar]

It's got to be a ray first before it's eligible for Ocular Spell.

Wait...what?

Since when?

By your own quote:

You can cast a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or less as an ocular spell. ... Only ray spells and spells with a target other than personal can be cast as ocular spells.

Target is a very specifically defined term in D&D.

Target or Targets
Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

So a spell like Valiant Fury (amazing spell) has a target that is not Personal only, and a variable range (Short, IIRC). An Occular Valiant Fury would be fired from your eyes with a fixed range of 60'. Thus, its a valid target for Persist Spell and therefore DMM Persist.

How is that wrong?

[JeenLeen]

Originally Posted by Occular Spell
You can cast a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or less as an ocular spell. ... Only ray spells and spells with a target other than personal can be cast as ocular spells.

I'm guessing that the "and" means "both" not "either" by Curmudgeon's reading.
Does it have to be both a ray spell and a non-personal spell, or does it have to be a ray spell or a non-personal spell? I could see the latter being the case, as I can't think of any ray spells that are personal.

[Curmudgeon]

Obviously I wasn't very clear. I wasn't saying that you can't use Ocular Spell with targeted spells; I was saying that the feat doesn't convert non-ray, non-targeted spells into rays, refuting quick_comment's claim that "You can make any spell eligable for persistent spell". It has to already be a ray to be an Ocular ray.

You could also read the "and" as a logical operator (rather than the usual English verbiage which substitutes for a logical or), but I wasn't doing that.

[Navigator]

Mass Shield of Faith has a range of Short
Mass Conviction has a range of Medium
Mass Resist Energy has a range of Short

They aren't legal for DMM. Great regular buffs though.

It would be a crime to persist these. Just extend them and they pretty much last all day anyway in high levels.

[Keld Denar]

Unless I'm grossly mistaken, a spell can't both be a ray and be targeted. Rays produce an effect, and the effect is fired as a vector. The word target doesn't appear at the top description of ANY ray spell I've looked at, which includes all of the ones in the PHB for now. I'll check the rest later. They do use target in the body of the spell, but thats mearly the convenient descriptor of "whatever you are shooting at" rather than a keyword. Targeted spells require LoS and LoE to the target, Rays only need LoE.

So yea...no spell can be both a Ray and Targeted...which means that the 2nd thing you mentioned, the use of and and or interchangably, is probably the correct assumption.

[Curmudgeon]

So yea...no spell can be both a Ray and Targeted...which means that the 2nd thing you mentioned, the use of and and or interchangably, is probably the correct assumption.

Glad we got that cleared up.

I just wanted to avoid any situation where someone thought you could use Ocular Spell to convert Fireball into a ray, and then persist that. (Chain Lightning is quite bad enough, thank you.)

[Jack_Simth]

My team has two clerics with DMM Extend and Persist. We are looking for buffs that can help the entire party. (They already have the normal Greater Visage of the Diety, etc. on themselves.)

So far we have:
Elation (BoED)
Recitation (Spell Compendium)
Vigorous Circle (Spell Compendium)

Does anyone have any other ideas? Ideally, it would be spells that effect the entire team, not one-person spells like Freedom of Movement.

By houserule, Death Ward and anything that has the effect of Death Ward is banned. We're in an undead-heavy campaign, so he doesn't want anything that basically makes us immune to most undead's effects. Spells that make us immune to just ability damage, negative levels, or something else would probably be allowed, though.

Edit: any books allowed, except ToB. 3.0 books not updated are also allowed.

Let's see...
You've got Elation, Recitation, and Vigorous Circle (interestingly, the duration cap is in the duration line, so is technically overwritten by the Persistent Spell feat). Heroes' Feast (Extend it for 24 hours - Core), Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Spell Compendium, already mentioned), and your pick of Holy Aura, Unholy Aura, Cloak of Chaos, or Shield of Law (or multiples, but as you're facing off against Undead, Holy Aura will likely be your best bet - the "Evil Creatures" clause on the SR will come up a lot).

If you allow Reach/Chain spell to help, then just about any good other-affecting Cleric spell will work - Freedom of Movement is good, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestments, whatever.