Dragons in DnD 3.5ed as player characters

[Paganboy28]

What sort of true dragon would you play or would you say is the most uber in terms of a PC?

Also, what class would you mesh onto it?


I am thinking maybe a Tome Dragon Archivist would be a rather potent combination or a Tome Dragon Druid going to a Arcane Heirophant?

Opinions?


Also, what are opinions on the Multi-headed template combined with the Multi-voice feat. As a caster, this makes soem dragons uber. IMO

[Callos_DeTerran]

What sort of true dragon would you play or would you say is the most uber in terms of a PC?

Also, what class would you mesh onto it?


I am thinking maybe a Tome Dragon Archivist would be a rather potent combination or a Tome Dragon Druid going to a Arcane Heirophant?

Opinions?


Also, what are opinions on the Multi-headed template combined with the Multi-voice feat. As a caster, this makes soem dragons uber. IMO

Multi-headed Blue Dragon Ravager of Tiamat. Playable? Probably not, awesome? Most definitely.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The LA is far too rough. Though a melee Killer Gnome build might work if you just take Wyrmling(or Pseudodragon) and your DM allows you to ignore the racial prerequisites.
Also, Ambush Drake is a 7 HD dragon with LA 0, IIRC. Pretty popular for that reason.

[deuxhero]

I think the best two in terms of HD/LA are Ambush Drake and Steel Dragon (has LA, but is a true dragon) .

[dspeyer]

I had a wyrmling brass dragon rogue once who was great fun to play. A very effective scout, with tinyness and flight and fire immunity. The cone of sleep was also pretty effective. It wasn't an effective melee fighter though, so bard, beguiler or factotum would have been a more powerful class than rogue.

[dspeyer]

Also, Ambush Drake is a 7 HD dragon with LA 0, IIRC. Pretty popular for that reason.

My copy of MMIII lists Ambush Drake explicitly as "LA: --".

I've heard this LA 0 thing before though. Was it a first edition misprint?

[deuxhero]

It's initial online "print" makes no mention of LA, thus LA+0 for the same reason as humans.

[Glimbur]

The best way to make a dragon campaign work imo is to just have every player be a dragon and kick both LA and reason to the curb.

[Hat-Trick]

Screw the rules we have Dragons? Awesome.

[sofawall]

It's initial online "print" makes no mention of LA, thus LA+0 for the same reason as humans.

Do you mean this online print? The one where LA is mentioned at "--", therefore in unplayable for PCs?

[JaxGaret]

The best way to make a dragon campaign work imo is to just have every player be a dragon and kick both LA and reason to the curb.

You could say the same for "Insert Monster X" campaign. Or "Insert ECL X race".

It's an awesome idea.

[Altima]

There actually used to be a setting in AD&D that was designed solely around dragon PCs.

It even went into details about what kind of 'pets' would benefit dragons the most. Elves mostly won out, simply because we're talking about creatures that can live for thousands of years. Everything else just died too damn quickly.

It even supported players making dragons with PC classes (mind you, this was 2nd edition, so...), so you'd have dragon clerics, dragon wizards...dragon psionicists...

[Salt_Crow]

A friend of mine played in a CR=ECL campaign with two dragons in the party. They were pretty balanced, iirc.

[JaxGaret]

It even supported players making dragons with PC classes (mind you, this was 2nd edition, so...), so you'd have dragon clerics, dragon wizards...dragon psionicists...

Dragon Rogue would be hilariois.

'I might be Huge-sized and smashing you with my tail but SNEAK ATTACK!"

A friend of mine played in a CR=ECL campaign with two dragons in the party. They were pretty balanced, iirc.

You know, that's really not a bad idea for a houserule. Of course, there will be some abusable selections, so you'd have to go on a case by case basis, but it might be a bit more balanced than the core rules.

[sofawall]

you do know the reason CR does not equal ECL is because many many many many many monsters have abilities that aren't that good, as monsters, but as PCs snap many thing in two, even three pieces?

I think it says that in 2, maybe 3 places, just in core.

EDIT: CR is also much easier to break than ECL.

[quick_comment]

you do know the reason CR does not equal ECL is because many many many many many monsters have abilities that aren't that good, as monsters, but as PCs snap many thing in two, even three pieces?

I think it says that in 2, maybe 3 places, just in core.

EDIT: CR is also much easier to break than ECL.

Like teleport at will

On monsters, at best, its for harassment.

On PCs, it lets them break your campaign.


Another way to get dragons as PCs is to have every PC include in their backstory being polymorphed by a crazy wizard.

[dspeyer]

For dragon PCs, CR=ECL will leave them overpowered. A CR 5 very young silver dragon has everything a raging level 10 barbarian does, plus breath weapon, flight, etc. It's ECL 14, which might be too high.

On the other hand, an all-dragon party might do better being equal CR than equal ECL, so long as no one deliberately abused it.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

you do know the reason CR does not equal ECL is because many many many many many monsters have abilities that aren't that good, as monsters, but as PCs snap many thing in two, even three pieces?

I think it says that in 2, maybe 3 places, just in core.

EDIT: CR is also much easier to break than ECL.

Yes, a game where the players advance by CR instead of ECL would not be remotely balanced other than if players intentionally limit themselves(which is different from the rest of 3.x how?). It would be awesome, though. A Dragon, growing from an especially-deadly iguana into a mountain-sized force of nature. An Imp assassin, gathering unholy energy to itself until it can scare Balors. The players don't need to be balanced with their challenges, just with each other.

[dspeyer]

Dragon Rogue would be hilariois.

'I might be Huge-sized and smashing you with my tail but SNEAK ATTACK!"

Try a black dragon submerged except for his nostrils in a swamp.

[Lycanthromancer]

In a CR = ECL game, I'd so be playing a choker.

Extra actions ahoy!

[sofawall]

And fairly low CR, too.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

In a CR = ECL game, I'd so be playing a choker.

Extra actions ahoy!

Note what I said about it needing to be player/DM balanced. Attempts to break it are too easy to use(Ikea Tarrasque, Kobold Adept, etc). The upper power limit would need to be figured out in advance, and rule -1 adhered to.

[Sanguine]

Note what I said about it needing to be player/DM balanced. Attempts to break it are too easy to use(Ikea Tarrasque, Kobold Adept, etc). The upper power limit would need to be figured out in advance, and rule -1 adhered to.

What's rule -1? What your saying strikes me as Rule 0 applied by a fair DM.

[oxinabox]

I agree with who ever saidAmbush drake, has LA:--- Meaning not playable by PCs>

Doesn't savage species have rules for playiong an all Dragon Party?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

What's rule -1? What your saying strikes me as Rule 0 applied by a fair DM.

Rule 0: The DM has the final say.
Rule -1: Don't be a jerk.

[Sanguine]

Rule 0: The DM has the final say.
Rule -1: Don't be a jerk.

Awww Okay. I just assumed Rule -1 was an implied part of Rule 0.

On-Topic I think Draconomicon has rules for Dragon PCs.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Steel Dragon would probably be the most playable due to their superior spellcasting ability, but there isn't a LA listed. IIRC they were printed most recently in Dragons of Faerun, which may list a LA, but I don't have that one.

As for what classes to take with one, I'd definitely get Abjurant Champion for the caster level boost. Most dragons have far more HD than the level of their spellcasting ability, and dragon HD give fighter BAB, so most dragons could almost triple their caster level by taking Abjurant Champion.

[Jade_Tarem]

Awww Okay. I just assumed Rule -1 was an implied part of Rule 0.

On-Topic I think Draconomicon has rules for Dragon PCs.

They do, but it's kind of a slapped-on thing. I don't want a wyrmling with five levels of fighter, blast it, I want a D-R-A-G-O-N!

That said, I personally feel that the best PC dragon is the Red Dragon, and the bigger and more cliche, the better. Make him smug, comically evil, and completely unconcerned with the social graces, or even not looking like a monster.

"Fine, but I want my payment in virgins."

"'Don't burn this! Don't burn that! Don't eat him!' If you humans don't want to be killed, why are you made out of meat and treasure?"

"No, you may not 'hitch a ride.' The last adventurer who tried to do that was delicious."

For extra giggles, try saying everything in character in your best Jeremy Irons (Scar, from The Lion King) impersonation.

[dspeyer]

Steel Dragon would probably be the most playable due to their superior spellcasting ability, but there isn't a LA listed. IIRC they were printed most recently in Dragons of Faerun, which may list a LA, but I don't have that one.

This seems a poorly thought-out monster. It's not just missing level adjustments (which true dragons ought to have). For young and older, its caster level exceeds its CR. Yes, being secretly a dragon *disadvantages* mid to high level sorcerers! Also, they're described as spending most of their time in humanoid form, but their only means of doing that is 5/day polymorph, which lasts 1 min/level.

[Jade_Tarem]

It has a LA, you just have to calculate it manually. I'll give it a go right now, SSG style:

Breath Weapon (+1)
Spellcasting Ability (+1)
Flight (+1)
Spell Resistance (+1)
Spell-Like Ablities beyond ECL (+1)
Three wacky but seperate resistances (+1)
Unbalanced Ability Scores (+1)
Fear Effect (N/A, not better than a wizard at that ECL casting Fear)

So, LA +7. In a high level game, the Ability Scores, Resistances, and Spell-Like Abilities can probably be collectively reduced to a +1, so +5 LA in a high power game.

Manual LA calculation is subject to DM ruling, so your opinion may differ, but that seems fairest to me. You can't even touch this creature until we get to at least a level 9 game, when it will have 4 Hit Dice. I wouldn't recommend playing one until an ECL 13 game, though.