The Forest Guardian

[rokar4life]

Has anyone used a creature, or rather an obstacle that cannot possibly be beaten by fighting, although it seems to present an immediate danger? I like the idea, and I was wondering what players reactions would be.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Has anyone used a creature, or rather an obstacle that cannot possibly be beaten by fighting, although it seems to present an immediate danger? I like the idea, and I was wondering what players reactions would be.

Sure but what's the purpose for your unbeatable forest guardian and how are the pcs supposed to deal with it?

[rokar4life]

its from a quest in oblivion, and the book "the sword in the storm" it's a giant scary a$$ bear that cant be beaten by fighting, but you can just walk around it.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Unbeatable forest guardian? You mean like a Druid? ;)

Honestly, I think a typical session with one would go like this:

Spoiler

Show

DM you're walking through the forest of MacGuffin towards the cave of RUP(the only way to defeat Baron von Ebil). You eventually come up on the cave. Standing out front is a massive brown bear, with 3-inch fangs, and muscles to make the Barb look puny. What...
Rogue: 24 Init! Sneak Attack!
DM: If you're sure, I'll...
Rogue: Does 27 hit flatfooted?
DM: Yes, and init is Rogue, Barb, big-ass bear, Cleric, Wiz.
Barb: Charging POWER ATTACK! 1.9e12 damage
DM: The bear shrugs it off and full-attacks Barb. Take...37.
Barb:
Cleric: I heal Barb.
Wiz: I cast "you lose".
DM: The bear ignores it.
Wiz:
Rogue: ...I abandon the party to the beast.
Barb: COWARD! Get back here!
Rogue: No.
Barb: ...RUN AWAY!
Wiz: *vanishes*
DM: Left with no other targets, the bear kills Cleric.

*3 hours of planning later*

Party:Okay, we fill the forest with traps and impassable terrain, then start a forest fire. It should flee directly into the ballistae we've positioned on the only remaining paths. If it survives that, Wiz unleashes the Undead.
DM: *facepalm*

[dragonfan6490]

Unbeatable forest guardian? You mean like a Druid? ;)

Honestly, I think a typical session with one would go like this:

Spoiler

Show

DM you're walking through the forest of MacGuffin towards the cave of RUP(the only way to defeat Baron von Ebil). You eventually come up on the cave. Standing out front is a massive brown bear, with 3-inch fangs, and muscles to make the Barb look puny. What...
Rogue: 24 Init! Sneak Attack!
DM: If you're sure, I'll...
Rogue: Does 27 hit flatfooted?
DM: Yes, and init is Rogue, Barb, big-ass bear, Cleric, Wiz.
Barb: Charging POWER ATTACK! 1.9e12 damage
DM: The bear shrugs it off and full-attacks Barb. Take...37.
Barb:
Cleric: I heal Barb.
Wiz: I cast "you lose".
DM: The bear ignores it.
Wiz:
Rogue: ...I abandon the party to the beast.
Barb: COWARD! Get back here!
Rogue: No.
Barb: ...RUN AWAY!
Wiz: *vanishes*
DM: Left with no other targets, the bear kills Cleric.

*3 hours of planning later*

Party:Okay, we fill the forest with traps and impassable terrain, then start a forest fire. It should flee directly into the ballistae we've positioned on the only remaining paths. If it survives that, Wiz unleashes the Undead.
DM: *facepalm*

Awesome. Just Awesome.

[sofawall]

Very likely.

[golentan]

Unbeatable forest guardian? You mean like a Druid? ;)

Honestly, I think a typical session with one would go like this:

Spoiler

Show

DM you're walking through the forest of MacGuffin towards the cave of RUP(the only way to defeat Baron von Ebil). You eventually come up on the cave. Standing out front is a massive brown bear, with 3-inch fangs, and muscles to make the Barb look puny. What...
Rogue: 24 Init! Sneak Attack!
DM: If you're sure, I'll...
Rogue: Does 27 hit flatfooted?
DM: Yes, and init is Rogue, Barb, big-ass bear, Cleric, Wiz.
Barb: Charging POWER ATTACK! 1.9e12 damage
DM: The bear shrugs it off and full-attacks Barb. Take...37.
Barb:
Cleric: I heal Barb.
Wiz: I cast "you lose".
DM: The bear ignores it.
Wiz:
Rogue: ...I abandon the party to the beast.
Barb: COWARD! Get back here!
Rogue: No.
Barb: ...RUN AWAY!
Wiz: *vanishes*
DM: Left with no other targets, the bear kills Cleric.

*3 hours of planning later*

Party:Okay, we fill the forest with traps and impassable terrain, then start a forest fire. It should flee directly into the ballistae we've positioned on the only remaining paths. If it survives that, Wiz unleashes the Undead.
DM: *facepalm*

Oh my, how badly I wish I could sig that.

[Harperfan7]

It would pretty much just be an "overwhelming encounter" to the pcs, and they will either fight to the death or run away. Unless you punch their faces with hint-gauntlets, they'll never know the significance.

HOWEVER

If they sense it before (they think) it senses them, they might go around it.

Although, personally, I've played oblivion and if I knew you had too, I'd probably make the connection.

[Jade_Tarem]

Honestly, I think a typical session with one would go like this:

Spoiler

Show

DM you're walking through the forest of MacGuffin towards the cave of RUP(the only way to defeat Baron von Ebil). You eventually come up on the cave. Standing out front is a massive brown bear, with 3-inch fangs, and muscles to make the Barb look puny. What...
Rogue: 24 Init! Sneak Attack!
DM: If you're sure, I'll...
Rogue: Does 27 hit flatfooted?
DM: Yes, and init is Rogue, Barb, big-ass bear, Cleric, Wiz.
Barb: Charging POWER ATTACK! 1.9e12 damage
DM: The bear shrugs it off and full-attacks Barb. Take...37.
Barb:
Cleric: I heal Barb.
Wiz: I cast "you lose".
DM: The bear ignores it.
Wiz:
Rogue: ...I abandon the party to the beast.
Barb: COWARD! Get back here!
Rogue: No.
Barb: ...RUN AWAY!
Wiz: *vanishes*
DM: Left with no other targets, the bear kills Cleric.

*3 hours of planning later*

Party:Okay, we fill the forest with traps and impassable terrain, then start a forest fire. It should flee directly into the ballistae we've positioned on the only remaining paths. If it survives that, Wiz unleashes the Undead.
DM: *facepalm*

You beat me to it. The only thing I can see that's wrong with this scenario is the lack of out-of-character whining about how they should be able to kill it and about how their DM is so mean for using something not in the Core Rulebooks.

[AstralFire]

Oh my, how badly I wish I could sig that.

Just sig a funny line in it with a quote hyperlink back to the post.

And god, that is so accurate.

You beat me to it. The only thing I can see that's wrong with this scenario is the lack of out-of-character whining about how they should be able to kill it and about how their DM is so mean for using something not in the Core Rulebooks.

Too true. Too true.

[rokar4life]

DM you're walking through the forest of MacGuffin towards the cave of RUP(the only way to defeat Baron von Ebil). You eventually come up on the cave. Standing out front is a massive brown bear, with 3-inch fangs, and muscles to make the Barb look puny. What...
Rogue: 24 Init! Sneak Attack!
DM: If you're sure, I'll...
Rogue: Does 27 hit flatfooted?
DM: Yes, and init is Rogue, Barb, big-ass bear, Cleric, Wiz.
Barb: Charging POWER ATTACK! 1.9e12 damage
DM: The bear shrugs it off and full-attacks Barb. Take...37.
Barb:
Cleric: I heal Barb.
Wiz: I cast "you lose".
DM: The bear ignores it.
Wiz:
Rogue: ...I abandon the party to the beast.
Barb: COWARD! Get back here!
Rogue: No.
Barb: ...RUN AWAY!
Wiz: *vanishes*
DM: Left with no other targets, the bear kills Cleric.

*3 hours of planning later*

Party:Okay, we fill the forest with traps and impassable terrain, then start a forest fire. It should flee directly into the ballistae we've positioned on the only remaining paths. If it survives that, Wiz unleashes the Undead.
DM: *facepalm*

my point was to have something like this happen, it would force them to think about something other than IT MOVED, KILL IT!!!!! and they would get pissed off, and wipe, and then i MIGHT tell them

[Seffbasilisk]

I'd simply make something that they couldn't fight.

IE: "A thousand scattered leaves are swept up in a whirlwind, which, aside from ruffling at your hair and pulling the fringes of your cloaks forward seems to have no effect upon the terrain around it. The leaves each seem to smack into an invisible barrier, and only as the winds abate, can the face be seen. This face, composed entirely of leaves afloat in the air before you, breaks into a smile as it looks over the entire party, and says "Welcome travelers, to Myrnos Woods. I trust, you come in peace?" The words seem to bear no malice, but as they're said, a hush falls, as if each animal is listening intently as to your answer. The trees surrounding the clearing each lean forward, as if they too, would lend an ear had they one. The silence's texture presses down upon you, and you know in that instant, that what you say in these next few seconds, could determine your life from this point on...and whether or not it will continue."

[Jade_Tarem]

...The trees surrounding the clearing each lean forward, as if they too, would **** an ear had they one...

And here we have another victim of the profanity filter and the ever growing number of euphamisms for man parts. Truth be told, your post was rather hilarious, in an absurd kind of way, for the few seconds that my mind cycled through various four letter words to fill in the blank.

[Seffbasilisk]

And here we have another victim of the profanity filter and the ever growing number of euphamisms for man parts. Truth be told, your post was rather hilarious, in an absurd kind of way, for the few seconds that my mind cycled through various four letter words to fill in the blank.

Ahh, and the exercise in vulgarity was the entire point of the post, no?

**** it. Y'all are too juvenile. Editing the post.

[Jade_Tarem]

Well, no, but I don't really have a comment on the rest of it. There's nothing wrong with it, of course, but I can still see my players attacking the giant leaf-face thing. I can see them attacking it with fire and expecting to be rewarded for their cleverness, as a matter of fact.

I've had some bad experiences with overestimating the cunning of my players lately, can you tell?

Edit: Good grief, sir! I did it to be funny. I'll happily erase this post and the previous one if it bothers you that much...

[Seffbasilisk]

I feel your pain as to...overly simplistic players. I tend to weed those out however, by running a game so merciless, and with enough of a turnover, that those who blast first and ask later don't live long.

As to the comedic post, a good deal of the mirth is lacking, though I too have had many a similar reaction, because as a writer I often try to employ that word in ways other than to label a man's twig and berries, and the thrice-bedammned filter continually stands in my way.

As to a good reaction, should the party fireball:

"The face instantly vanishes, as the component leaves are incinerated in the flash and dull roar of the fireball. However, the silence continues, and the eyes that passivly watched, now seem to positivly glow with barely constrained malice. As if the seasons were flowing past in an instant, the four nearest trees as one, shift the hue of thier leaves and shed them. The leaves fly up to reform as a face, crimson with rage, that looms over the party, no longer gracing them with a smile, instead a voice with the depth of ages booms "You are no longer welcome here interlopers, retreat, lest ye tempt my wrath."

Any and all who resist, can save against Polymorph Object, to turn them into trees, boulders, etc. One by one, starting with the ones who first attack. 'Readied action' against the first attacker, then they can roll initiative verse The Forest.

[Talic]

Ahh, and the exercise in vulgarity was the entire point of the post, no?

**** it. Y'all are too juvenile. Editing the post.

Ah, the elusive rooster, and its alternate meanings in the world of prose and poetry.

This hearkens me back to a time when I made a lycanthropic Cachelot Whale, and had to rename him to "The Great White Whale" instead of his original name. (Hint: First name was "Moby")

[daggaz]

You can c0ck an ear?? I know you can c0ck your head, such that you turn your ear to hear better, but I never heard it used directly on the ear itself. I was trying to figure out wth the banned word was, but that one didnt even come to mind..

[Seffbasilisk]

You ever pull your ears back, when you're paying attention, to hear better?

That is such.

We're getting off-subject though.

[Renrik]

To steal a leaf from Rivendell: The forest has a river before it. There is a ford, but no bridge. If you are deemed unworthy or don;t pass a challenge of some sort, the stream washes you away.

You could use wind instead, of course.

For an interesting forest guardian, how about a huge mat of mycelium? Mycelium, the body of mushrooms, grows in great nets under the forest floor and cannot be entirely eradicated. Nonetheless, it can spawn forth mushrooms, spores, or myconids to deal with intruders into its host.

A huge sentient tree or a watchful totem pole could also work.

[Killer Angel]

its from a quest in oblivion, and the book "the sword in the storm" it's a giant scary a$$ bear that cant be beaten by fighting, but you can just walk around it.

Try to use "spirit of the land" (Monster Manual II).
I think it suits perfectly your "unbeateable" like-bear.

[Gamgee]

Awesome. Just Awesome.

I concur brilliant! My party does crazy **** like that all the time!

Edit
Only it involved a dog, about 200,000 tons of alcohol, an ogre warrior, a barbarian, a trigger happy wizard with fireball, and a mountain. Oh and throw in four flasks of oil and a cord of rope for fun.

[Seffbasilisk]

The Spirit of the Land with a little tweaking is, for the most part, what I was trying to describe. It's certainly an overwhelming force, and one that any PC with half a brain can realize that they simply cannot combat. If they try to combat it, you could simply toy with them. Throwing up walls, shifting things, screw with them, basically.

Edit: It's on page 189 of the MM II

[paddyfool]

Some classic examples of this:

The door best left unopened: This door has signs on it indicating strongly that you should go around, e.g. "Five liches playing poker. Do not disturb".

The sleeping dragon: Classically, a sleeping great wyrm of some kind.

The higher-level characters: Your country is having border skirmishes which may generate into war with another country, who seem to be massing their forces for some larger push. You and your party are just barely of a level to attempt a scry-and-die. However, the other country are known to have uber-powerful leaders with seriously scary lackies and general protection; if you attempt this against their high command, you will surely either die, or be immediately over-powered and imprisoned. Better to try and work towards averting the war some other way.

[kamikasei]

Has anyone used a creature, or rather an obstacle that cannot possibly be beaten by fighting, although it seems to present an immediate danger? I like the idea, and I was wondering what players reactions would be.

It depends on the expectations you've created for the players up to this point.

It sounds like you don't like how your players have been approaching the game. However, throwing in an encounter which is simply "no, nothing you do works! Now it kills you! YOU ARE ALL DEAD AHAHAHA!" is not educational, it's just annoying. If the only reason for the characters not to hack-and-slash their way through every obstacle is that sometimes one or another of them will turn out to be arbitrarily unbeatable at your whim, they're not learning caution but paranoia.

[Triaxx]

Golentan: Try linking to the post itself instead.

---

"This land has been ravaged by too many, lest you come to heal the land, you shall not pass."

The creature is simply ethereal, but cannot be passed. A player that thinks about it will get the riddle. If they don't get it, reflect the damage they do back on them, even if it kills them. Don't give them a chance to act, but have the creature reach out and heal them of all their injuries, taking them to full power even from death. Eventually they'll get it.

[Starshade]

What about an awakened coastal or giant Redwood?

The most logical is for player to then use fire, and fire based attacks. So make it prepared for it. Id say as a cleric and druid, of a water/ocean based deity.

An example is Sebek, neutral evil god. Give the Sequoia tree some levels of Druid for flavour, and some levels as cleric, in my example Sebek (egyptian crocodile headed god, exist in FR, but i think that one is in other books, Deity or Pantheon book?), and choose Water as a domain. Substitute the Deity and domain for something fitting the campagin world, be shure to include prepared spells for elemental resistance, water, more water and possibly weather effects.

If the forest guardian is clearly evil (and then looks as a danger), the forrest should be too.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

my point was to have something like this happen, it would force them to think about something other than IT MOVED, KILL IT!!!!! and they would get pissed off, and wipe, and then i MIGHT tell them

False choice. It is true the party might try to attack. Giving the appropriate color description as was suggested will help the party realize they are not supposed to attack. Letting the bear speak will encourage the party to parlay or find some alternate route. If they still attack, you can beat them but not tpk them. You know your players, just stat the bear so that it can easily beat the party without killing them.

An awakened bear druid or wildshaped druid or a good dragon polymorphed into a bear of sufficiently high level should be able to beat the party handily. If your party is level X, then make the guardian a druid of level X+4 or 5 or dragon of CR 4 or 5 higher than the party should encounter, with appropriate wbl, and build it specifically to shrug off your party's attacks and be able to beat it easily.

Then, if they've attacked and you've beaten them, have the guardian explain again what it is and have it give the party an appropriate quest to make up for the offense.

[rokar4life]

that is a good idea, but I was thinking it would be good for an especially high level party, like one that recently went toe to toe with the tarrasque, and lived. so to use something thats actually in one of the books would be too easy for them, and having their ass handed to them by a bear would be kind of funny. But no i wouldn't let it kill them

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Same rules apply to an epic or near epic level party except you turn it up to 11...er CR 30...Here are some ideas:

- The gaurdian/awakened bear is not what they have to worry about. It's the forest itself. The place of the encounter is a genius loci. It's +30 and with enough high powered slam attacks to slam/grapple the party into submission.

- The bear is only an epic druid's awakened cohort. The epic druid with foresight is ready. If the attack starts, the party will first be beset by a behemoth, then an elemental swarm, then...

- The bear is an epic dragon. If the party attacks, nuff said...

- The bear is really an epic bear. Just pile on templates until you get something strong enough or pick an appropriate epic level monster and refluff to a bear...