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Thread: [M&M] Alternate form question;
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2009-08-10, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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[M&M] Alternate form question;
So my friend made an alternate form with 26 ranks and costing 52 points, being a PL 10 char.
Is that legal? What your thoughts about this kind of abuse(?) ?
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2009-08-10, 09:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: [M&M] Alternate form question;
An alternate form with 26 ranks... Costing 52 power points.
So he gets 5 power points per 2 spent.
Check for abuse of the rules. For example, applications of flaws where they really should be drawbacks where Containers are involved.I use black for sarcasm.
Call me Rose, or The Rose Dragon. Rose Dragon is someone else entirely.
If you need me for something, please PM me about it. I am having difficulty keeping track of all my obligations.
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2009-08-10, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [M&M] Alternate form question;
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2009-08-10, 10:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: [M&M] Alternate form question;
Yeah, that will do it.
Containers aren't supposed to have the Action flaw, they are supposed to have the Action drawback. I would check the Official Rules Questions thread on ATT for confirmation.
So, basically, he gets 26 ranks for 127 power points, not 52.I use black for sarcasm.
Call me Rose, or The Rose Dragon. Rose Dragon is someone else entirely.
If you need me for something, please PM me about it. I am having difficulty keeping track of all my obligations.
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2009-08-10, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [M&M] Alternate form question;
I though in M&M, you couldn't have more ranks in something than your PL?
If a tree falls in the forest and the PCs aren't around to hear it... what do I roll to see how loud it is?
Is 3.5 a fried-egg, chili-chutney sandwich?
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2009-08-10, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [M&M] Alternate form question;
Last edited by Arakune; 2009-08-10 at 12:06 PM.
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2009-08-10, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: [M&M] Alternate form question;
I use black for sarcasm.
Call me Rose, or The Rose Dragon. Rose Dragon is someone else entirely.
If you need me for something, please PM me about it. I am having difficulty keeping track of all my obligations.
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2009-08-11, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2006
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Re: [M&M] Alternate form question;
M&M 2 is a great game, but its not at all balanced. It absolutely requires a GM who will closely review characters and say "no" to things they think are overpowered, even if they are completely legit within the rules.
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2009-08-11, 07:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [M&M] Alternate form question;
Last edited by Arakune; 2009-08-11 at 07:18 PM.
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2009-08-11, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [M&M] Alternate form question;
In my opinion, every game should be like this. The game designers give you the framework. The DM decides what is overpowered or exploitative of the rules and rules accordingly. The unbreakable game being an impossibility, M&M doesn't try, and instead gives us a solid core rules set, and relies on your judgment to keep the PC power level in check.
YOUNG GOAT!
Get out of my mind
My love for you is way out of line
Better run, GOAT
You're much to young, GOAT!
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2009-08-11, 07:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: [M&M] Alternate form question;
I don't think this is a bad thing though: it's designed for flexibility, not balance, and it does an AMAZING job of the former--you can make just about anything in Mutants & Masterminds. Further, thanks to PL limits, it doesn't do too bad of a job at balance either.
Sure, it's trivial to break the game, (by making your Blasts free actions, buying Improved Critical 19 times, etc.), but it's also usually very blatant that you're doing so. Encouraging the GM to take a more active role in disallowing cheese (which I like to think happens in any game, but that's not what you'd think of D&D looking at most of the threads on this board :p ) is a great idea, and I think it helps prepare the GM to make effective use of Fiat (which relies on the same "just tell the players no" principle, in exchange for giving them a Hero Point, aka "just tell the players very yes").
That said, I'm pretty sure Rose Dragon is right that it's supposed to be a Drawback and not a flaw, since it basically works similar to Alternate Power.Last edited by Haven; 2009-08-11 at 07:19 PM.
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2009-08-11, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [M&M] Alternate form question;
In my opinion the book should give more tips or better guidelines as to how to make the char, either to be more internaly consistent or at least to help the GMs how to proceed in some cases.
The GM thinking the char is overpowered is relative to each one and some better ground rules doesn't hurt.
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2009-08-11, 08:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-08-11, 09:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [M&M] Alternate form question;
That's the point. The game (after giving some examples of what archetypal characters should look like) leaves it to the individual GM to determine what is and is not too much power for the campaign.
Some people don't like that. They want something cut and dried saying what is and is not kosher. I don't. Since the system makes no effort whatsoever to do this, there are no loopholes to shoot, no weaknesses in the system to manipulate, because the arbiter of what is and is not allowable in any given game is the individual game master.
Char gen gives the player a tremendous amount of freedom to make the character he wants, but the game makes it clear that the be-all end-all of the rules is left to the GM's discretion. You work with the GM to get the best character for the game, not against him to work out a back door exploit to boost your own power unduly.Last edited by GoatToucher; 2009-08-11 at 09:10 PM.
YOUNG GOAT!
Get out of my mind
My love for you is way out of line
Better run, GOAT
You're much to young, GOAT!
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2009-08-11, 10:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: [M&M] Alternate form question;
That's... what most games do anyway. The rule 0 is normaly one of the first ones to be mentioned in a lot of RPG books.
The problem is that some combinations are only clear to some people after trial and error, resulting in either laughts or a massive headche to the players (GM included).
Better ground rules, better wording to some important exceptions to the normal rules and better guidelines of how to determine a game breaker from just a more optimized character is what I suggested.
The system does a good job if you don't think about it too much, but only a little bit more of though and some ambiguous wording is enough to create a huge gap in game play.
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2009-08-12, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Canada, eh?
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Re: [M&M] Alternate form question;
Pfft, Superman is your standard-issue Paragon, with enough points in Drawbacks to pick up a bit of Super-Speed. It's the guys like Metamorpho and Green Lantern GMs have to watch out four (Batman, too, if he picked up the Gadgets power).
Personally, my favorite part of the system is the ease with which you can make a decent character. Having inadvertently gimped my first few DnD characters, I like that as long as you hit your PL caps, you'll be able to contribute. I find that the book warns you about most of the overpowered stuff, like Summon or Transform. Sure, it isn't perfect, but I find the freedom is worth a bit of GM diligence.