[3.5 Eberron] TWF build help plz?

[Djibriel]

A new player is about to be introduced to the party by a person who is not up to date on how to be good a building characters. He would like to play a two-weapon fighting kinda guy based on Lloyd Irving from Tales of Symphonia (doesn't really matter that much).

I don't really know what to advise him. Character level 7, Incarnum, ToM and ToB are out (neither the player nor the dm is familiar with the mechanics). I assume ToB would've been kind of perfect, but it definetely won't fly. His own idea was a Daring Outlaw of some sort, which I fear might be not too hot. I've considered a Swift Hunter kind of build (seems to lack in damage), or even a Swift Ambusher (low to-hit).

The party consists out of a Knight/Homebrew Motorcycle-Mounted PrC, Ranger 7 archer and a Telepath with some Hadoken-esque powers.

What is best in TWF life?

[Random NPC]

Might I suggest Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 4 with the... Daring Outlaw feat?

[Rixx]

...Fighter? With two-weapon fighting? Seems like it would be the most obvious choice. You really don't need to leave core for minor flavor stuff...

I mean, Rangers get TWF for free, but fighters get so many bonus feats, that's not even really much of a benefit.

[9mm]

lets see... 6:1-Jack B. Quick, slightly reworked, would start coming online to his signature moves by lv 7... But TWF is better with sneek attack style of damage extenders.

[ritztastic]

...Lloyd Irving...

Wow, it's too bad ToB is out. That would be absolutely perfect. I'm sure you'd find Demon Fang, Tempest, Beast, all his moves in some way in there. Such a shame.

[sofawall]

I was thinking, as soon as I read Lloyd Irving "Oh, ToB works well" then I got real sad in the next paragraph.

As is, Daring outlaw is good, and Swift Ambusher has no problems hitting. Weapon Finesse, Wraithstrike, any number of ways to hit things with a 3/4 BAB. How do you think Swordsages, or single-class rogues get by?

[PinkysBrain]

Might I suggest Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 4 with the... Daring Outlaw feat?

Why? I personally have my doubts whether insightful strike is really worth a feat (TWF and weapon finesse already eat into your feats to begin with) but even if you really like it there is no reason to take Swashbuckler above 3 ... uncanny dodge is a lot better than a dead level.

Touch attack stuff like wraithstrike and alchemist fire is only suitable to very high powered games IMO.

[AslanCross]

Swashbuckler grants Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at level 1, so that's one feat down.

PHB2 has a Swashbuckler ACF gives options for TWF: Shield of Blades. I'm AFB at the moment so I can't say exactly what it does. I'd think that would work well for a Daring Outlaw build.

Let me also mention that the exclusion of ToB makes me sad.

[Keld Denar]

Let me also mention that the exclusion of ToB makes me sad.

+1

The reason for Swashbuckler over rogue is the slightly more HP and the better BAB. That doesn't really matter at this point, since Rogue3/Swash4 and Rogue4/Swash3 are nearly identical. One has ~2 more HP, the other has 4 more skill points and Uncanny Dodge.

The difference becomes more pronounced at higher levels though. Rogue4/Swash12 is pretty far ahead of Swash3/Rogue13 in terms of HP and AB, but the 2nd has 2 rogue special abilities (CRIPPLING STRIKE!!!!!) and a TON more skill points.

Thats pretty much player style choice though.

[ZeroNumerous]

Why? I personally have my doubts whether insightful strike is really worth a feat (TWF and weapon finesse already eat into your feats to begin with) but even if you really like it there is no reason to take Swashbuckler above 3 ... uncanny dodge is a lot better than a dead level.

Except the only thing Rogue gives is Evasion(got it!), skill points and.. That's it.

Swashbuckler gives full BAB, full sneak attack progression, crappy reflex save bonuses and.. Well, that's about it. Still better than nothing. There's no reason -not- to take more Swashbuckler.

[PinkysBrain]

Maybe it's the DM ... but a lot of my character deaths followed shortly after "what is your flatfooted touch AC again?".

Uncanny Dodge is huge (and it's not evasion). That 4th level of rogue is also +1 BAB of course.

[ZeroNumerous]

Maybe it's the DM ... but a lot of my character deaths followed shortly after "what is your flatfooted touch AC again?".

It's your DM. Being flat-footed isn't nearly as bad as straight touch attacks.

[PinkysBrain]

Oh I dunno, that's 5 AC down the drain on this type of character (more at higher levels).

[Kaiyanwang]

Except the only thing Rogue gives is Evasion(got it!), skill points and.. That's it.

Swashbuckler gives full BAB, full sneak attack progression, crappy reflex save bonuses and.. Well, that's about it. Still better than nothing. There's no reason -not- to take more Swashbuckler.

You forget HPs.

Said this, I'd favour rogue anyway, because of what said above, and because such character is not likely to be a meatshield.

Is more likely to FLANK with a meatshield and grind the enemy.

Just to: take penetrating strike, an ACF for rogue, from dungeonscape. It allows half SA on enemies you can flank. Always useful.

[Cieyrin]

Plus, you can Savvy Rogue it up to get that Strength damage from Crippling Strike, regardless of their immunity to precision damage. later on, of course, when you get those Rogue Specials, which makes it superior to the Swash's Crippling Critical, as you can usually get sneaks off more often than crits.

[Rad]

I kind of like Swift Hunter builds. Travel Devotion and one level of cleric (or, if your DM is generous, Extra turning with no cleric levels) would fix the issue of having to move and full attack too.

[Fitz]

if it was more to the flavour i would recomend lion totem barbarian scout combo, pounce and skirmish really combone well with the heap of attacks you should be working towards, followed possibly by tempest. however seems pretty focused on a swashbuckler type, so rogue swashbuckler starts to shine on grounds of style : feat travel devotion might be useful then (1/day move as a free action, allowing a full attack after the move)


Fitz

[AstralFire]

Just remember that his mental stats will have to look something like 8 Wis, 8 Int, 18 Cha.

[ZeroNumerous]

Plus, you can Savvy Rogue it up to get that Strength damage from Crippling Strike, regardless of their immunity to precision damage.

Usually precision damage immunity entails physical ability score damage immunity. I still favor Swashbuckler if you're making an actual swashbuckler. Swash 3/Rogue 6/Swordsage 1/Assassin 10 is my favored build for sneak-attacking types.

[Keld Denar]

Normally so, Zero, but check this out!

<snip>
Crippling Strike: You can deal Strength damage even to a target that is immune to extra damage from sneak attacks.
<snip>

That means that yes, you can use crippling strike against a golem.