[4E] Archery Ranger

[AgentPaper]

It seems to be generally common knowledge that Defensive Mobility just is not a good class feature for Archer Rangers, to the point that even a ranger that never really plans to fight in melee if he can help it will pick the two-weapon style instead.

Now, being a fan of archery, I'd love to make a houserule to give archery rangers a much more interesting, and definitely more powerful, class feature. Only thing is, I haven't played an archer ranger enough to really know what they need or not. (the majority of my 4E experience being from a DM perspective)

So, to the archer rangers out there, what feature could the archery style offer you that you would take over the two-weapon fighting feature?

[Fax Celestis]

Try the Strafe ability from my Hunter class?

Strafe (Ex): A hunter learns how to move while attacking. Starting at 1st level, a hunter can make ranged attacks while moving. He can move both before and after an attack, provided that his total distance moved is not greater than his speed. During a strafe, he is allowed a single shot, as if he were making a standard attack action (not a full-attack). Performing a strafe is a full-round action that can be used only if the hunter is wearing light armor or no armor.

While strafing, the hunter deals an extra 1d6 points of damage. This is untyped precision damage, similar to that gained by a rogue's sneak attack. Creatures immune to critical hits or without a discernible anatomy (such as an ooze) are immune to the extra damage from a strafe. This damage increases by 1d6 every six levels, to 2d6 at 7th, 3d6 at 13th, and 4d6 at 19th. He also gains a bonus on attack rolls made during a strafe: +1 at 4th, +2 at 10th, and +3 at 16th.

At 4th level, and every six levels after (10th and 16th), the hunter gains the ability to make extras shots while moving. He must move at least 5' between each shot. Each shot deals extra damage and uses its own attack rolls. The second shot is made at the hunter's base attack bonus -5, the third at -10, and the fourth at -15--as if they were iterative attacks made in a full-attack.

[Draz74]

Try the Strafe ability from my Hunter class?

Um. That's not very 4e-ish. At all. 4e classes have, you know, Powers to take care of this sort of thing (extra damage, moving and attacking at the same time, etc.).

We're talking about replacing a Feat here, after all. Although the Feat is too weak (hence the thread), it should still be replaced by something on the same level as what the TWF Ranger gets (the Toughness feat). And 4e feats are generally quite a bit weaker than good 3e feats.

[Fax Celestis]

Um. That's not very 4e-ish. At all. 4e classes have, you know, Powers to take care of this sort of thing (extra damage, moving and attacking at the same time, etc.).

We're talking about replacing a Feat here, after all. Although the Feat is too weak (hence the thread), it should still be replaced by something on the same level as what the TWF Ranger gets (the Toughness feat). And 4e feats are generally quite a bit weaker than good 3e feats.

Crap and balls. I missed the 4e tagline. -_- Ignore me, move along.

[Jack_Banzai]

How about just a straight up +1 to hit and/or damage with missile weapons? Typeless.

[Kylarra]

Far shot perhaps? Absurd range is hilarious.
Weapon Expertise (Bow) or (Crossbow)
Weapon Focus (Bow) or (Crossbow)
Superior Weapon Proficiency (Greatbow)/(Superior Crossbow)
Speed Loader
Distant Advantage

[Jack_Banzai]

Far shot perhaps? Absurd range is hilarious.
Weapon Expertise (Bow) or (Crossbow)
Weapon Focus (Bow) or (Crossbow)
Superior Weapon Proficiency (Greatbow)/(Superior Crossbow)
Speed Loader
Distant Advantage

Not bad but it does penalize the ranger who wishes to use, say, shurikens. Don't laugh. It works.

[Kylarra]

Not bad but it does penalize the ranger who wishes to use, say, shurikens. Don't laugh. It works.

Fair enough.

Superior Weapon Proficiency (1 ranged weapon of choice).

though other than thematically I have to wonder why you'd want a shuriken since they have a whopping 1 range longer than a dagger

[RTGoodman]

I like the Distant Advantage - it seems very appropriate to me and means, you know, that they'll stay away from melee. Far Shot could work, too, but that's likely to be even MORE useless than Defensive Mobility. Or hey, Improved Initiative could be good; might be a little TOO strong, though.

[Tengu_temp]

Not bad but it does penalize the ranger who wishes to use, say, shurikens. Don't laugh. It works.

I'm curious, what advantage does a shuriken ranger have over a greatbow/superior crossbow one?

[Fax Celestis]

I'm curious, what advantage does a shuriken ranger have over a greatbow/superior crossbow one?

The ability to throw with two hands? Hideable weaponry? The possibility for a shield?

[Xallace]

I like the Distant Advantage - it seems very appropriate to me and means, you know, that they'll stay away from melee.

I have to cast my vote for this, too. Kind-of a "pack tactics" style feat the fits the ranger thematically, and useful to boot.

[Kylarra]

I like the Distant Advantage - it seems very appropriate to me and means, you know, that they'll stay away from melee. Far Shot could work, too, but that's likely to be even MORE useless than Defensive Mobility. Or hey, Improved Initiative could be good; might be a little TOO strong, though.

Distant advantage was my preferred of the group, but I figured I'd through out all the generic feats that would have some use for an archery ranger.

[RTGoodman]

I'm curious, what advantage does a shuriken ranger have over a greatbow/superior crossbow one?

The ability to more easily pretend to be a ninja?

[AgentPaper]

Superior Weapon Proficiency or Distant Advantage would be nice, but I don't think giving the class essentially a free feat is really the way to go. You already have feats, what you want is a class feature. For example, what if the Archery style gave you the ability to select any enemy you can see as your quarry, instead of having to choose the closest enemy? That would allow you to pick your targets and still do good damage. Probably not enough for an entire class feature though.

[Yakk]

So the melee ranger gets the unique feature of 2 good sized weapons, and half-decent feat (toughness).

The ranged ranger gets their attack-stat-to-AC.

I understand the use of defensive mobility -- you can move into position to get a prime shot with it. It isn't, however, enough to encourage the ranger to move into melee range and use it, for most players.

These are various and sundry attempts to encourage bow rangers to mix it up with monsters:
1: "Before making a ranged attack, you may shift 1 as a free action".

2: "You can threaten squares adjacent to you with a ranged weapon. When making an OA with a ranged weapon, you do not provoke."

3: "When someone misses you with a melee attack, as an immediate interrupt you may make a basic ranged attack on them. This does not provoke an OA."

4: "When you qualify for prime shot with an attack, you make critical hits on a 19-20 (18-20 at level 21+)."

I sort of like 1+4. 3+4 also has some pizzaz.

4, plus prime shot, should be enough to make a ranger really want to be closer to their target than any ally. 1 or 3 makes being in the middle of a melee less insane -- 1, because it lets the ranger shift out of the mess and get a shot off without being OA'd to death, and 3 because it encourages monsters to find a less painful target to attack.

Remember, we want the ranged ranger to mix it up with the opponents, and play the positioning game. Think legolas from LotR, not a sniper from the shadows.

Ranged rangers are already supreme at attacking from a safe spot -- we want to encourage the Ranged ranger to go past enemy lines and eviscerate the enemy artillery, or the like.

[Mando Knight]

I'm curious, what advantage does a shuriken ranger have over a greatbow/superior crossbow one?

+3 weapon proficiency and multiple attacks for one feat (Superior Crossbow needs the reload feat to do the same). It also gets access to Light Blade enchantments, and works with Rogue multiclass.

[Kylarra]

+3 weapon proficiency and multiple attacks for one feat (Superior Crossbow needs the reload feat to do the same). It also gets access to Light Blade enchantments, and works with Rogue multiclass.

The bigger and better question would be, "What advantages does a shuriken ranger have over a dagger ranger?"

The answer is weight (5 to 1/2 lb) and range (+1).

Since magical weapons return after the attack is made, weight isn't really a consideration (dagger is only 1lb anyway) and far throw feat will give you +2 squares of range over burning a feat for the +1 square of shuriken.

Dagger also works better with the rogue multiclassing, allowing you to go into daggermaster PP.

[Hal]

I'm curious about the premise (TWF > Archery). I play in two games, one with each type of ranger, and from what I've seen the Archery ranger can be very good. With a greatbow, the archery ranger is regularly doing lots of damage and generally stays out of trouble.

I'm guessing it's a problem with powers down the road?

[RTGoodman]

I'm guessing it's a problem with powers down the road?

To me it's just that TWF Rangers get a relatively good feat (Toughness) for free, while Archery Rangers are stuck with one that a lot of times will be pretty useless.

[AgentPaper]

Upon further thinking, I think we need two different archery talent lines, one for a up-close and personal legolas-style skirmisher, and one for a more stay back and out of sight sniper, which is also fun to play.

Skirmisher Fighting Style: You gain a +4 bonus to AC against opportunity attacks from your quarry. Prime shot also causes you to score a critical strike on a natural roll of 19-20. (If you would score a critical on a 19-20 already, you instead score a critical strike on a natural roll of 18-20)

Sniper Fighting Style: You can select any creature you can see as your quarry, instead of just the creature closest to you. Attacking your quarry does not break any concealment you have.

@Hal
It's not so much that archery rangers aren't powerful enough, so much that it just doesn't seem right that even if you never plan to use melee attacks, you're still better off picking the two-weapon fighting line than you are the archery line.

[Kylarra]

I'm curious about the premise (TWF > Archery). I play in two games, one with each type of ranger, and from what I've seen the Archery ranger can be very good. With a greatbow, the archery ranger is regularly doing lots of damage and generally stays out of trouble.

I'm guessing it's a problem with powers down the road?

I think the issue here is the benefit you get for taking the archery style. You get Defensive Mobility, which if you're good enough, should never come into play, whereas TWFs get toughness (always useful) and the ability to dual wield larger weapons, thus even if you intend to be an archery ranger, other than qualifying for the most excellent PP that is Battlefield archer, you lose nothing by taking TWF instead, and indeed gain a bit more options on the unlikely event you go into melee.

Upon further thinking, I think we need two different archery talent lines, one for a up-close and personal legolas-style skirmisher, and one for a more stay back and out of sight sniper, which is also fun to play.

Skirmisher Fighting Style: You gain a +4 bonus to AC against opportunity attacks from your quarry. Prime shot also causes you to score a critical strike on a natural roll of 19-20. (If you would score a critical on a 19-20 already, you instead score a critical strike on a natural roll of 18-20)

Sniper Fighting Style: You can select any creature you can see as your quarry, instead of just the creature closest to you. Attacking your quarry does not break any concealment you have.

I think you're breaking into the domain of PPs here. Choice of weapon style is one thing, emphasizing specific aspects of melding with that weapon is more the domain of PPs and feat choice than what should be decided at level one.

It should be a simple choice.
Ranged or TWF

Ranged -> Feat
TWF -> Toughness

Yes technically it appears like TWFers get a slight boost since they can wield onehanders like offhands, but you could easily counter that by giving a free Superior Weapon Proficiency (ranged weapon) feat if you cared. Note: that ranged users still have prime shot as well.

[AgentPaper]

Another thing I forgot to bring up, is that I like the idea where each class has it's own "sub-game" that it has to play to be it's best. For rogues, it's making sure you have combat advantage. (even moreso than other classes) For the fighter, it's making sure you're in position to block enemies from your allies. For the cleric, it's keeping track of how everyone's doing health-wise, and using your healing abilities where they're needed most.

For the ranger, it's supposed to be sticking on your quarry while keeping alive, which while Prime Shot does that in theory, in practice +1 to hit generally isn't worth being that close to the enemy. So, my idea for the skirmisher style is to give them more incentive to be up close, while also allowing them to be safer while doing so. For the sniper style, it forgoes that ability, instead having the archer focus on what enemy needs to die while keeping in cover.

[Sir Homeslice]

I think you're breaking into the domain of PPs here. Choice of weapon style is one thing, emphasizing specific aspects of melding with that weapon is more the domain of PPs and feat choice than what should be decided at level one.

It may be incredibly radical as far as features go, but I personally don't see how this could be discouraged. It's quite nice.

AgentPaper: You need to put in a clause about what happens to an 18-20 crit range before Skirmishers, ie Student of Caiphon or Daggermaster.

[Tengu_temp]

The ability to throw with two hands?

Huh? You can't wield a shuriken in two hands. And if you mean dual-wielding, then feats such as Two Weapon Defense work only if you're wielding two melee weapons, which shuriken is not.

+3 weapon proficiency and multiple attacks for one feat (Superior Crossbow needs the reload feat to do the same). It also gets access to Light Blade enchantments, and works with Rogue multiclass.

I see. Those bonuses (and the ability to use a shield, as Fax Celestis said before) don't seem to be worth using a weapon with such low damage for a pure ranger, but might be worth it for a dual class ranger|rogue. Also, crossbows allow you to make several attacks in a round too - if a power allows you to hit multiple targets, the additional load time is accounted for in the power.

[Yakk]

I'd be perfectly happy with Ranger/Daggermasters not being significantly better at ranged combat. They are both a corner case, and already pretty darn close to optimal.

Hence the 19-20 base, then at 21+ auto-upgrading to 18-20. This makes it nice at both heroic, paragon and epic levels -- and extra pip of critical chance.

Then either keep defensive mobility in addition, or add in some 'close range survival' feature. For compatibility, I'd keep defensive mobility.

So:
Melee Ranger: Can use non-offhand weapons in offhand. Feat: Toughness.
Ranged Ranger: Gets a critical hit on a 19-20 when they qualify for prime shot, or 18-20 at level 21+. Feat: Defensive Mobility.

The Ranged Ranger now has a huge incentive to mix it up, and a reason to pick up mobility-boosting and get-out-of-dodge powers for when the bad guys swarm him.

d multiple attacks for one feat (Superior Crossbow needs the reload feat to do the same)

You mean multiple powers in a round? Because superior crossbow already allows you to make multiple attacks in one round, so long as they are part of the same power.

[Shadow_Elf]

My idea was to give the Archer Ranger's Hunter's Quarry the "Brutal 1" property, as well as to swap out Defensive Mobility for Distant Advantage. I figured that the former made up for "TWF ranger can use one-handed weapons in their off-hand" and that the latter made up for "Toughness > Defensive Mobility, always". That's just my two cents though.

[Asbestos]

The bigger and better question would be, "What advantages does a shuriken ranger have over a dagger ranger?"

The answer is weight (5 to 1/2 lb) and range (+1).

Since magical weapons return after the attack is made, weight isn't really a consideration (dagger is only 1lb anyway) and far throw feat will give you +2 squares of range over burning a feat for the +1 square of shuriken.

Dagger also works better with the rogue multiclassing, allowing you to go into daggermaster PP.

Daggers also work better with the Ranger throwing PP, the Avalanche Hurler (because they count as melee weapons)

edit: On weapon load times... what's the point? Does my ranger Twin Strike on his turn, then he needs to reload before doing it again? Even though he need not reload between the Twin Strike shots?

[Yakk]

edit: On weapon load times... what's the point? Does my ranger Twin Strike on his turn, then he needs to reload before doing it again? Even though he need not reload between the Twin Strike shots?

Yes, when using a crossbow and without quick loader feat.

[Artanis]

Huh, I woulda sworn I'd replied to this...

At any rate, part of what you can do depends on what you want. Do you want to give incentives for a shooty Ranger to choose archery, or do you want to make a shooty Ranger avoid TWF? The latter keeps the balance of each build right where it is while making people not give their shooty Ranger the TWF build.


Some things I can think of for the former category:

*All of the suggestions that have been mentioned in this thread.

*There's a lot of melee-only stuff that could easily apply to shooty Rangers, so you could "homebrew" otherwise-identical versions for archery Rangers to use. I put homebrew in quotation marks because it wouldn't really be full-blown homebrew, it'd just be changing the text so that "melee" says "ranged", "strength" says "dexterity", and you slap on it only working for archery Rangers. Good candidates would be Mirror of Steel (from the recent Ranger Class Acts article), Flame Bracers (AV 117), and the various Scabbards (starting on AV 170).

*Some sort of feat that lets Prime Shot work from farther away. Like...*thinks*...say, it automatically works if you're only two squares away (it already automatically works if you're in melee since nobody's closer, this way it'll also automatically work if you're right behind a melee). Something along those lines.


And for the latter category:

*Make certain HQ-related things only apply to the Ranger's specialty. Like have the Lethal Hunter feat apply to ranged attacks only if it's an archery Ranger and apply to melee attacks only if it's a TWF Ranger.

*Make all the blatantly shooty-centric PPs only apply to archery Rangers the way Battlefield Archer and Beast Stalker do. Sharpshooter and Sylvan Archer from MP are particularly blatant examples of shooty PPs that TWF Rangers can take.

*Only let Prime Shot apply to archery Rangers.