Cloistered Cleric Advice

[Sucrose]

I have recently begun to play D&D IRL again, after a fairly extended period of serving as DM. As our group (who are playing at 8th level) needed divine casting, I stepped up with a Halfling Cloistered Cleric of Boccob, with high mental stats and only Dexterity above average for physical stats. This feels a bit like a blend between a wizard and a cleric, particularly courtesy of the Magic domain, so I'm having a fair degree of fun with it. The other party members are a Half-Dragon Half-Ogre Barbarian1/Fighter 2 greatsword specialist, and an Elven Psion specializing in cold and Force Missile.

While this is hardly the most optimized of parties, I'm still having trouble contributing to combat efficiently when healing or turning are not required, due to my relative naivete regarding efficient divine spellcasting, or casting from wands. As such, I'd greatly appreciate any advice you of the Playground may have regarding good wizard spells to put in wands for combat, or good clerical spells aside from buffs (we seldom take the time to buff up much. I'm well aware of what poor tactical sense that can make). Most books are available, but I'd like to avoid Shivering Touch levels of cheese, as I don't want to annoy the other players.

[vampire2948]

Did you consider Archivist (Heroes of Horror, also here) you get a greater spell selection than Cleric, and Dark Knowledge is fairly useful too.

You'd be able to learn blasty or crowd control spells from any domain you wish, so that means lots of arcane spells too, though they'd be cast as divine.

Cloistered Cleric doesn't really work very well, in my opinion... free Knowledge Domain < Loss of melee and armour abilities. imo.

If you are unable to swap to Archivist, let me know, and i'll find some spells that would fit your description given.

[Optimystik]

The CC should be played like a physically weak bard: you're the party loremaster, and you buff/debuff the others. Leave the swinging to the barb and the blasting to the psion.

What's your third domain? (Besides Knowledge and Magic.)

[Sucrose]

vampire, I am unable to swap out for Archivist. I lack the book for it, and I'm reasonably sure that the others do as well. Likewise, I'm quite aware that CC is weaker than straight Cleric: after all, it's what a fair number of people advise as a nerf for the original! I'm just hoping I can find a way of being somewhat useful once I've buffed all I have to.

Optimistyk, per Boccob's core domains, the third domain that I've acquired is Trickery. If there are non-core domains that might be more useful, please let me know: odds are decent that my DM would let me swap. Also, I'd be just fine with debuffing or buffing, but I'd like to know what some particularly good divine buffs and debuffs are (both mass and singular in the second case).

[RTGoodman]

The deity list from Living Greyhawk includes: Force (Complete Divine), Knowledge, Magic, Mind (CD), Oracle (CD), Rune (Sandstorm), and Trickery.

Sean K. Reynolds, who wrote the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, also wrote a Greyhawk Deities Expanded Domain List on his website, and he says that feels like the following domains from the FRCS could be added: Illusion, Portal, and Spell.

[TheLogman]

Enlarge Person is good for general combat, each of the plus stat buffs (Wisdom, Dexterity, Intelligence, ect.) are all great, Greater Magic Weapon is useful, Spell Immunity, Magic Vestment, Death Ward, Prayer. Wind Wall is really cool.

As for debuffs, Poison is good if you can get the touch, and there's a ton more great 3rd level debuffs, like blindness, bestow curse, contagion.

Plus, you have a lot of "adventuring" spells available, like continual flame, water breathing, freedom of movement, air walk, tounges, for special occasions.

Oh, and to the psion, I homebrewed a class that is basically the fire prestige class for psions, but for water or cold based psions. There are few other mechanical differences, but I tried to make it balanced. Maybe he would be interested?

Hydrokineticist

It's mostly utility and damage-based cold stuff, but if he's going to be specialized anyway, it could help quite a bit.

And yeah, there is a Cryokineticist in Frostburn, but I have not heard good things about it.

[Optimystik]

When you're done buffing and summoning, play Divine Archer with a crossbow, like Cadderly does. (I still believe he was the template for all future Cloistered Clerics.)

Just don't whip out the spindle-disks

[Milskidasith]

Wait, isn't CC supposed to be stronger than the normal clerics? The knowledge domain is useful, and increased skillpoints allow you to dump intelligence while still getting into all the PrCs you could ever need.

[TheLogman]

The trade-off is in exchange for better skills and more skill points and an extra domain, you get less weapons and armor proficiencies, which means the CC can't do combat quite like a regular one can.

[Tempest Fennac]

I remember starting a thread which was better ages ago, and some people said that Divine Metamagic and armour proficiency feats meant CCs are much better then normal Clerics (I didn't think that would be the case due to how many feats you'd need to get DMM and heavy armour proficiency combined with my view that they didn't make much sense from a fluff perspective).

[ZeroNumerous]

The trade-off is in exchange for better skills and more skill points and an extra domain, you get less weapons and armor proficiencies, which means the CC can't do combat quite like a regular one can.

The only thing you lose is heavy armor prof(clerics only get Simple Weapons anyway). This is easily fixed with a level dip in any base class that gets heavy armor prof. Or just dump a feat for Medium Armor Prof and pick up a set of Mithril Full Plate. But since you're already dumping a feat for it, get Gnome Twistcloth instead.

There's no real downside to playing a Cloistered Cleric versus a regular one. In fact, there's actually an upside as now you have 3 domains(or retain 2 domains if you dump one for any ACF that loses a domain), better skill points and lose nothing from your cleric abilities to gain those.

[Tempest Fennac]

CCs also have poorer BAB (I'd consider having to spend feats to wear better armour to be a problem due to how I'd sooner use my feats for other things, and being limited skillwise to getting Knowledge skills unless Domains which grant other skills doesn't seem worth it to me when a Wizard gets Knowledge skills for free). Admittedly, I think Clerics are best used in melee due to their limited Cure range*).


*I've often found that healing in combat is essential for stopping allies from dying.

[Gnaeus]

Enlarge Person is good for general combat, each of the plus stat buffs (Wisdom, Dexterity, Intelligence, ect.) are all great, Greater Magic Weapon is useful, Spell Immunity, Magic Vestment, Death Ward, Prayer. Wind Wall is really cool.

Enlarge Person won't work on his tank, and neither he nor the Psion will want it. The stat buffs are good at low levels, but at level 8 I would assume that they already have items to cover their key stats. Likewise, the tank certainly has a magic weapon, so GMW is only giving a +1.

The cleric handbook has a good list of generally good cleric spells (and feats, equipment, etc).
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...hp?topic=420.0

For finding wizard spells, I suggest
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...hp?topic=394.0

[Optimystik]

They also get downgraded to d6 instead of d8 hit dice, making frontlining a pipe dream (which is why I suggested Divine Archer.) Grab Zen Archery at level 6 and you're good to go.

[Gnaeus]

The only thing you lose is heavy armor prof(clerics only get Simple Weapons anyway). This is easily fixed with a level dip in any base class that gets heavy armor prof. Or just dump a feat for Medium Armor Prof and pick up a set of Mithril Full Plate. But since you're already dumping a feat for it, get Gnome Twistcloth instead.

There's no real downside to playing a Cloistered Cleric versus a regular one. In fact, there's actually an upside as now you have 3 domains(or retain 2 domains if you dump one for any ACF that loses a domain), better skill points and lose nothing from your cleric abilities to gain those.

You do also lose some hit points (d8>d6) and your medium BAB. Trading the Knowledge domain for the Knowledge Devotion (complete champion) really makes it a win.

Argh! Partial ninjas.

[Milskidasith]

BAB doesn't really matter when a cleric has multiple ways to boost their strength and BAB up to the same as the parties best melee character.

[Kylarra]

CCs also have poorer BAB (I'd consider having to spend feats to wear better armour to be a problem due to how I'd sooner use my feats for other things, and being limited skillwise to getting Knowledge skills unless Domains which grant other skills doesn't seem worth it to me when a Wizard gets Knowledge skills for free). Admittedly, I think Clerics are best used in melee due to their limited Cure range*).


*I've often found that healing in combat is essential for stopping allies from dying.

divine power makes the BAB decrease pretty much irrelevant.

[ZeroNumerous]

On BAB: Irrelevant. CCs can get full BAB with a spell.

On HP: Granted, but the difference between a d6 and a d8 is 22 HP at 20th, or 2+1/level at any given level.

There's nothing the base cleric can do that the cloistered version can't do just as well or better.

EDIT: Double partial ninja.

[only1doug]

You do also lose some hit points (d8>d6) and your medium BAB. Trading the Knowledge domain for the Knowledge Devotion (complete champion) really makes it a win.

Argh! Partial ninjas.

as Gnaeus says, Knowledge devotion from complete champion will give your party a free buff in combat by identifying your enemies weaknessess (bonus to hit and damage based on knowledge roll).

[Thorin]

You should consider Reserve feats.

As long as you have prepared an spell of X (illusion, darness, fire, etc, depending on the reserve feat), you can, at-will, do a minor effect (for example, summon a flanking elemental, toss fire orbs, daze some enemies, etc).

Complete Champion and complete mage have a bunch of those

EDIT: Normally the effect you make is better according to the level of the spell (of subtype X) you have prepared

[Lord Loss]

Uh, guys? What is a cloistered cleric?

[Thorin]

Is a variant from the normal cleric. Less tank, more nerd

Here you go

[RTGoodman]

This. WhiteText

[Sucrose]

Wow, whole lotta feedback. I'm not going to be responding to any of the comments regarding the melee viability of Cloistered Clerics. I cannot attain the power that other CCs may be able to, due to stat distribution, race, and unwillingness to waste feats on armor proficiencies when I'm trying to portray an academic.

Many thanks to those who have offered suggestions regarding feats, spells, and alternate class features. Also thanks to Gnaeus for pointing out handbooks for more of those. I'll look into them when I have a bit more time.

[greenknight]

I cannot attain the power that other CCs may be able to, due to stat distribution, race, and unwillingness to waste feats on armor proficiencies when I'm trying to portray an academic.

If you're willing to do it, Polymorph cheese solves most of those issues, and a Monk's Belt solves the rest. Combined with Divine Favor, Divine Power and Righteous Might, you can be the best melee combatant of the group. Although without Divine Metamagic, you won't really hit your stride for that until around 10th level.

[quick_comment]

Why is CC any worse in melee than the regular cleric?

Wow, they cant wear armor, so what? Between knowledge devotion, divine power and the huge number of AC buffs that clerics get, its not a problem.

[vampire2948]

Why is CC any worse in melee than the regular cleric?

Wow, they cant wear armor, so what? Between knowledge devotion, divine power and the huge number of AC buffs that clerics get, its not a problem.

They've got one grade less HD, and lack martial weapon proficiencies.

So they're pretty much as good in Melee, sans buffs, as a sorceror or similar. Oh, and then they have the same BAB as a wizard. So... they are effectively wizards in combat.

[Woot Spitum]

Here are some of my favorite spells to use as a caster cleric:

Obscuring Mist, Darkness, Deeper Darkness-Need to shut down a ranged threat quickly? Toss one of these at your enemy. None allow saves, so they are useful even at high levels. They are also useful for protecting yourself while casting buff spells.

Wall of Stone-Any time you can force your foes to do something other than attack (in this case climbing, moving around, or breaking down your wall) is basically an extra round for all your allies to act unhindered. Preventing enemies from attacking your allies in the first place beats healing every time. You can even use this to encircle foes. Does not allow a save.

Blindness/Deafness-50% miss chance on melee attacks, the inability to use ranged attacks or spells that require a target, and the need to make successful listen checks just to locate the party make blindness an excellent debuff. Add deafness on top of blindness against single powerful foes to make them essentially helpless. Allows a will save, so some enemies are resistant. You will also need the Heighten Spell feat for this to be useful at higher levels.

Hold Person-Paralyzing a single enemy is always useful. This is less useful if you don't regularly fight humanoids, but in campaigns where humanoids are the primary foe this is amazing. Once again, this allows a will save, and needs heighten spell to be useful at higher levels.

Air Walk:Flying will protect you from damage far more than AC ever will.

These spells are mostly accessible early on, and a single feat makes the few that allow saves useful even at later levels.

Oh, and always carry at least two wands of cure light wounds. Never prepare healing spells if you can spontaneously cast them.

I have probably played clerics more than any other class, and I can say from experience that caster clerics are much stronger than melee clerics.

[Set]

Sounds like you have the Magic Domain. Use that to use scrolls and wands of whatever wizard spells you want. Between a plethora of Clerical spells, and pretty much any Sor/Wiz spell you want (as a Wizard of 1/2 your Cleric level), you've got access to just about any spell in the game.

[quick_comment]

They've got one grade less HD, and lack martial weapon proficiencies.

So they're pretty much as good in Melee, sans buffs, as a sorceror or similar. Oh, and then they have the same BAB as a wizard. So... they are effectively wizards in combat.

Divine power gives them the same BAB as fighters, along with a strength enhancement and extra hp.

Knowledge devotion gives increased attack and damage.